What it means to be an American

[xoxoxoBruce]

Originally Posted by primal muse

oh noes, you got me started.

the first american principle is greed. we are greedy by nature due to our second rate capitalistic ideals. we will push any one or anything out of the way without a second thought of the long term reprocussions to get what we want. (i.e. foriegn oil)

First of all our capitalistic ideals are not second rate. Nobody has better capitalistic ideals than we do. Secondly, I haven't pushed anybody out of the way to get foriegn oil since the '73 embargo. Don't confuse the government/industry with individual Americans.

secondly most americans are emphatically uneducated and far too trust worthy of our corrupt system. people are too ignorant to even see ro care that we're being conditioned on a mass scale daily to keep us fat, happy, and submissive.

Come back when you've got a wife and 6 kids, a mortgage and bills up to your ears. Then tell us how much you're worrying and what you're doing to straighten out the system.

which brings me to my third and final. americans are some of the most gluttonous, lazy creatures in exsistance. we are unhealthy both mentally (but hey why not just pop a pill) and physically (gastric bypass is a quick fix).

What do you live forever? Why? So you can tell other people they should be doing what you think is best for them?

we expect big brother to keep us safe just as long as we dont have to lift a finger or figure anything out for ourselves.

Isn't that what we pay them for?.

i mean no offense to any one remotely patriotic on this forum but plz, wake up.

No, you wake up.
If you don't like the was this country operates you've got 2 choices. Either find someplace else to live or change it...I honestly suggest the latter.
On the other hand, if you just want to tell me what to think, how to feel and how to live......well, let's just say, Homey don't play dat.

[jonesieQ]

[quote=xoxoxoBruce]First of all our capitalistic ideals are not second rate. Nobody has better capitalistic ideals than we do.

Maybe a comma between Primal's "capitalistic" and "ideals" should be added. But insisting that we have first rate "capitalistic ideals" isn't exactly a compliment. Our current form of capitalism, laissez-faire, wreaks a lot of damage over time...we've been witnessing it since the late 70's...the sudden need to change from a manufacturing base to a service base simply because industry had no restrictions on taking our manufacturing overseas for cheaper overhead and higher dividends to stockholders. Careers, families, towns, small businesses, schools, neighborhoods, regions, were devastated by this. And now we have a huge income gap and a privileged class, a large number of medically uninsured, personal debt to income ratios that are frightening, no job security, unprecedented levels of emotional and physical dysfunction, etc...it's awful. Our government hasn't been doing the job they're being paid to do. Instead they're trying to cure our (their) ills by becoming Big Brother.

The problem I think Primal was noting is that instead of fighting back, many Americans have become complacent and apathetic. A good point to make is that it's really difficult to fight back...the vortex that this economic system has us sucked into is powerful and disempowering. There's no time to fight, and little energy. (Exactly what you said about 'having a mortgage, six kids...', etc.) The economics we live by have us hogtied, and industry and finance know that. But something's got to break soon...Americans typically will only tolerate so much.

[Kitsune]

Originally Posted by jonesieQ

the vortex that this economic system has us sucked into is powerful and disempowering. There's no time to fight, and little energy.

I don't doubt it one bit. I'm in the middle of this book, Nickel and Dimed and it has really opened my eyes as to why people are trapped in low wage jobs, not to mention why no one has time or energy to stand up for anything, anymore. I have no doubt the system is this way by design, either.

[jonesieQ]

Originally Posted by Kitsune

I don't doubt it one bit. I'm in the middle of this book, Nickel and Dimed and it has really opened my eyes as to why people are trapped in low wage jobs, not to mention why no one has time or energy to stand up for anything, anymore. I have no doubt the system is this way by design, either.

Excellent book...sad and depressing, but pulls us out of the trees to see the forest. And there's no question that the vortex has given industry, government and the wealthy a free pass for decades. Thank you Mr. Greenspan, et al..

[xoxoxoBruce]

[quote=jonesieQ]

Originally Posted by xoxoxoBruce

First of all our capitalistic ideals are not second rate. Nobody has better capitalistic ideals than we do.

Maybe a comma between Primal's "capitalistic" and "ideals" should be added. But insisting that we have first rate "capitalistic ideals" isn't exactly a compliment. ~snip

Duh.
He may not like capitalistic ideals but can't acuse them of being second rate ones.

[xoxoxoBruce]

Originally Posted by jonesieQ

snip~ Our government hasn't been doing the job they're being paid to do. Instead they're trying to cure our (their) ills by becoming Big Brother.

Now you're totally wrong here. The government is doing exactly what they are being paid to do....by those who pay the most.....to benefit those that pay the most. You surely don't think that piddling few thousand dollars you kick in counts, do you?
Perhaps you mean they aren't doing the job they were elected to do.

The problem I think Primal was noting is that instead of fighting back, many Americans have become complacent and apathetic. A good point to make is that it's really difficult to fight back...the vortex that this economic system has us sucked into is powerful and disempowering. There's no time to fight, and little energy. (Exactly what you said about 'having a mortgage, six kids...', etc.) The economics we live by have us hogtied, and industry and finance know that. But something's got to break soon...Americans typically will only tolerate so much.

I despise people that discount opinions based on age, BUT...at 21, I don't think Primal has been rode hard and put up wet enough times to appreciate how hard life can be. I wanted to change the whole world at one time, then I wanted to just change the country. Now I'm happy to just keep my shit together.
I admire Primal's ideals and wish him all the luck in the world, changing the system, but nothing good will come of criticizing me and you.

[MaggieL]

Originally Posted by xoxoxoBruce

I admire Primal's ideals and wish him all the luck in the world, changing the system, but nothing good will come of criticizing me and you.

If you recall, at 21 people like you look a lot like part of The System, Bruce. ;-)

[xoxoxoBruce]

Originally Posted by MaggieL

If you recall, at 21 people like you look a lot like part of The System, Bruce. ;-)

And they'd be right, I am part of the system. What they don't understand is if it weren't for people like me, it would be much, much worse.
People like me, who have "raged against the machine", and been slapped down so many damned times we've learned to pick out fights more carefully.
Where do you think, "Think globally, act locally", came from?

Primal thinks I haven't got a clue when actually I've been there, done that.
I understand why Primal's frustration with my "ignorance", but my attempt at a humorous response stems from trying not to give advice because....

[MaggieL]

Originally Posted by xoxoxoBruce

Where do you think, "Think globally, act locally", came from?

Rationalization and cognitive dissonance. :-)

It's actually quite possible to get good advice from elders. But, like every other cohort or demographic group, some of them are assholes. You have to be selective.

[primal muse]

Originally Posted by xoxoxoBruce

Now you're totally wrong here. The government is doing exactly what they are being paid to do....by those who pay the most.....to benefit those that pay the most. You surely don't think that piddling few thousand dollars you kick in counts, do you?
Perhaps you mean they aren't doing the job they were elected to do.
I despise people that discount opinions based on age, BUT...at 21, I don't think Primal has been rode hard and put up wet enough times to appreciate how hard life can be. I wanted to change the whole world at one time, then I wanted to just change the country. Now I'm happy to just keep my shit together.
I admire Primal's ideals and wish him all the luck in the world, changing the system, but nothing good will come of criticizing me and you.

you get an a for being totally presumptuous. ive probably faced more trial in my 21 years than you have in your entire life time.

[Beestie]

Originally Posted by primal muse

you get an a for being totally presumptuous. ive probably faced more trial in my 21 years than you have in your entire life time.

Give yourself an A for being presumptuous. And give yourself an A+ at kissing your own ass.

[jonesieQ]

Originally Posted by xoxoxoBruce

Now you're totally wrong here. The government is doing exactly what they are being paid to do....by those who pay the most.....to benefit those that pay the most. You surely don't think that piddling few thousand dollars you kick in counts, do you?
Perhaps you mean they aren't doing the job they were elected to do.

The people I've voted for CAN'T do their job because they're outnumbered by an administration and Congress that WON'T let them.

Originally Posted by xoxoxoBruce

I despise people that discount opinions based on age, BUT...at 21, I don't think Primal has been rode hard and put up wet enough times to appreciate how hard life can be. I wanted to change the whole world at one time, then I wanted to just change the country. Now I'm happy to just keep my shit together..

I know exactly how that goes...but at the same time, that's like saying the system accomplished its mission...to so discourage change, to turn such a deaf ear, that there's no alternative but to hunker down, nose to the grindstone, and try to survive. Also known as oppression.

At 21 maybe Primal is frightened by the current conditions. I know I was - way back when. And way back then we did something about it. We marched, took tear gas, bled, some died, but we persisted, and our world changed. Difference today? Not enough of the young are united under a common banner. They're the only ones who are free enough of the vortex to get out there and make the change happen...that's what pisses me off when youth complains. Don't like it....THEN DO SOMETHING ABOUT IT...we did...it's now their turn.

[primal muse]

Originally Posted by jonesieQ

At 21 maybe Primal is frightened by the current conditions.

you hit the proverbial nail on the proverbial head right there.
what frightens me even moreso is that the majority of people my age just dont care.
im scared to think about what our future will be like for americans.
most of my generation is undereducated, highschool dropouts (me included, i decided to take a hard road) unaware of anything that is going on in this country or with foriegn relations etc.
which gives the system the perfect oppurtunity to rape us.
i will say this, i come from one of those lower class families that cant even afford health insurance. its infuriating.
my mom has a drug problem and cant even get into a government funded rehab because her income is "too high"
so they might as well say youre poor, not poor enough, i guess youre fucked.
and my fear is that things like that will only get worse as time goes by.
think about the progression of corruption from the 1950's until now. it was a swift sociological downfall, more crime rates, more drugs, etc.
i constantly fear that we're hurling ourselves towards destruction. and our governemnt is so concerned over keeping drugs off the street that they miss so many rapists and cerial killers and pedofiles its not even funny. we are not focused on the real issues and that my friend is scary.
and thats only one little sliver out of a big pie of things that are not right and that are more than likely detrimental to this country's future.
our elders are not preparing our youth to run this country in the future.

and i'd love to do something about it but im at a total loss. no one else i know even cares enough.

[MaggieL]

Originally Posted by xoxoxoBruce

Come back when you've got a wife and 6 kids, a mortgage and bills up to your ears.

Sounds like the definition of selfish...or ignorant...or both. After the third kid you should know why they're happening.

[primal muse]

Originally Posted by xoxoxoBruce

First of all our capitalistic ideals are not second rate. Nobody has better capitalistic ideals than we do. Secondly, I haven't pushed anybody out of the way to get foriegn oil since the '73 embargo. Don't confuse the government/industry with individual Americans. Come back when you've got a wife and 6 kids, a mortgage and bills up to your ears. Then tell us how much you're worrying and what you're doing to straighten out the system. What do you live forever? Why? So you can tell other people they should be doing what you think is best for them?Isn't that what we pay them for?. No, you wake up.
If you don't like the was this country operates you've got 2 choices. Either find someplace else to live or change it...I honestly suggest the latter.
On the other hand, if you just want to tell me what to think, how to feel and how to live......well, let's just say, Homey don't play dat.

where in that breif paragraph did i imply that you were spposed to think the way i do?
i really dont have the time to dignify your ignorance as it might take me all day.

let me guess, youre also republican?

and if our capitilistic ideasl arent second rate then how come our country is in such deep debt to other countries that its frightening?