Emergence of humanity

[xoxoxoBruce]

The North American Man/Flag Love Association gets the money from dead fetuses?

[9th Engineer]

NAMBLA, my bad. what the heck is NAMFLA?

[Clodfobble]

North American Man-Fetus Love Association, I'm assuming.

[Happy Monkey]

Of course.

[wolf]

Had this thought a couple of nights ago, not sure if it will come out in typing as well as it did in my head ...

A woman learns that she is pregnant. This is, depending on the woman and her circumstances, either a joyous event, or a fear-inducing one, but, biologically, it is the same event. This is at the SAME point in the pregancy (let's say about week 6, for the sake of argument).

The happy woman thinks to herself, "I am having a baby!" The woman desiring a termination (yes, I am simplifying this, I know that for many it is not an easy decision) thinks to herself, "I am ridding myself of this fetus."

One woman sees regards her clump of cells as a person. The other does not.

How can it be both at the same time?

[Undertoad]

Let's say the six-week woman "delivers" (miscarries) and calls you up and says "Wolf come see my beautiful baby!" And when you get there she picks it up and shows you:



Do you say "What a cutie! What have you named her?" or is it closer to "I'm sorry, do you have a phone? I shall have to see you on a professional basis" ?

[Happy Monkey]

"I'm having a baby" isn't the same as "I have a baby". If you have a fetus, you could have a baby in the future.

[Spexxvet]

Originally Posted by wolf

...One woman sees regards her clump of cells as a person. The other does not.

How can it be both at the same time?

One person sees a pet turtle as part of their family, another sees it as lunch. It's still just a turtle, either way.

Another analogy - 1855 US. Southern slave owners see black slaves as property, something on the level of animals, while northern anti-slavery advocates see them as human beings that should be given equal status.

or

Bush tells us that the clear sky initiative will be good for the environment. People with an IQ over 73 know that he's spewing bullshit.

Perspective and predjudices can greatly impact what we perceive as "fact" and "truth".

[Trilby]

Originally Posted by wolf

One woman sees regards her clump of cells as a person. The other does not.

How can it be both at the same time?

There is nothing either good or bad but thinking makes it so.

[wolf]

Originally Posted by Undertoad

Let's say the six-week woman "delivers" (miscarries) and calls you up and says "Wolf come see my beautiful baby!"

No, she responds by mourning the loss of her baby ... not her fetus.

(Haven't been here myself, know many who have. This is a devestating loss)

[9th Engineer]

Discussing what a mother calls her unborn child is irrelevant, why would you think that has anything to do with the rights of the fetus???? The legal issues are being doged here, lets stop arguing over who holds a funeral and who uses what terminology to describe a miscarriage. None of this matters here. Once again, science and popular opinion are getting mixed inappropriately. I believe it was mentioned in the thread that we arn't discussing when the child becomes human according to the most basic scientific definitions, but rather when it gains human status in law and society. The legal reprecussions need to be balanced, we absolutely cannot afford to pretend that we can be hazy about when the laws 'kick in' just to remain PC regarding abortion.

Nonscientific and non-legal references are just clouding this issue and making it emotional.

[tw]

Originally Posted by 9th Engineer

Nonscientific and non-legal references are just clouding this issue and making it emotional.

I appreicate that you grasp the concept.

[xoxoxoBruce]

Originally Posted by 9th Engineer

Discussing what a mother calls her unborn child is irrelevant, why would you think that has anything to do with the rights of the fetus???? The legal issues are being doged here, lets stop arguing over who holds a funeral and who uses what terminology to describe a miscarriage. None of this matters here. Once again, science and popular opinion are getting mixed inappropriately. I believe it was mentioned in the thread that we arn't discussing when the child becomes human according to the most basic scientific definitions, but rather when it gains human status in law and society. The legal reprecussions need to be balanced, we absolutely cannot afford to pretend that we can be hazy about when the laws 'kick in' just to remain PC regarding abortion.

Nonscientific and non-legal references are just clouding this issue and making it emotional.

I hate to break it to you, but this is not a forum for legal professionals. But if you find one, the answer will be just as clear as it is here.
There isn't a clear cut legal answer to that question and if you did some research you would know that. Legal professionals are all over the map, on this one, as are the multitude of federal/state/local laws governing fetuses/babies/cell clumps.

The only thing we can logically discuss here is what we feel the law should be and why...... be it emotional, logical, religious, tradition or whatever.
We can change/form our personal opinion, or not, by hearing the opinions and feelings of others.

It's much easier to discuss things that follow rules, are based on provable facts, but man, this topic is as far as you can get from that.

[9th Engineer]

Heh, I was really counting on there being no legal professionals here since you're absolutely right that they're all over the map on this issue. Rather than having people post exhausting lists and references to case precidents I'm trying to emphasize the impact that any decision about this will have.

The legal reprecussions need to be balanced, we absolutely cannot afford to pretend that we can be hazy about when the laws 'kick in' just to remain PC regarding abortion.

This is really the point that I think is getting lost in the mix. I don't want the discussion to become a yes/no rant about abortion, but if it's appropriate to put emotion to the side on issues like immigration and gay marriage the same should be done here.
My generation (I'm 20) has been hyper-indoctrinated with rhetoric concerning the sacred right (my teachers phrase) of a mother to abort her pregnancy. This sets up a dichotomy that really quite amusing to watch. I've seen people talk themselves into a complete wall, one sentence they'll tell me that a fetus is just a lump of tissue no different than the woman's appendix and the next they refer to it as a baby if I ask whether you can clone it.

Everything else aside, is cloning a three day old fetus or performing genetic experaments on it too dangerous to be allowed???

[Ibby]

If the fetus is to be aborted then simply discarded, then of course I believe genetic testing is fine, as long as the woman it came out of agrees.

The way I look at the abortion issue is that, since it's all over the board... If you are against abortions, simply do not get one. It's really that simple.

But I stand by my position that since I'm never going to get a baby taken outta me, its definitely not my descision to make.