Jesus Camp

[footfootfoot]

Pangloss, the beliefs you cite are hardly worth passing along to children, no one should argue that. It becomes a stickier matter when someone dictates to you what beliefs you should pass along to your children. If the balance of power were different would you want to be compelled by others to pass along:

"Niggers are lazy and inferior." "Jews are stingy and control all the banks." "People who deny God are going to Hell." "Women should submit to their husbands." "Our faith is the ONLY true faith, and if you reject it, you too will burn in Hell.

I don't think so. As I stated earlier, you should feel compelled to start passing your beliefs along and no one should stop you from mounting a public awareness campaign that the racist beliefs you cited are pure bollocks. Pure, sweaty bollocks at that.

[Pangloss62]

I just think parents should not convince their children of the existence of supernatural phenomena, which form the basis for most every religion. Teach knowledge, skills, empirical truths, don't indoctrinate. Ethics and values are not contingent on religion. These can be taught as principles, not "beliefs."

[limey]

Originally Posted by Pangloss62

.... Ethics and values are not contingent on religion. These can be taught as principles, not "beliefs."

Very neatly put. Can I use that?

[Pangloss62]

Can I use that?

Sure.

[smoothmoniker]

Originally Posted by Pangloss62

Ethics and values are not contingent on religion. These can be taught as principles, not "beliefs."

Why teach them if you don't believe that they are true? Do you have some empirical set of data that leads you to hold certain values? Or are you simply passing along a set of learned, and believed, ethical values?

This seems like a pretty artificial distinction to me.

[Pangloss62]

Do you have some empirical set of data that leads you to hold certain values?

Experience and history of past human behavior rather than "data." I generally follow Kant's Categorical Imperitive:

"Act only according to that maxim by which you can at the same time will that it would become a universal law."

That boils down to the "Golden Rule," you know, the "do unto others" rule.

By following the above no "beliefs" are needed.

[xoxoxoBruce]

Originally Posted by Pangloss62

I just think parents should not convince their children of the existence of supernatural phenomena, which form the basis for most every religion. Teach knowledge, skills, empirical truths, don't indoctrinate. Ethics and values are not contingent on religion. These can be taught as principles, not "beliefs."

Oh, now I got it. Parents shouldn't teach their children what they believe,
they should teach their children what you believe.
I think not.

I may not agree with what they teach their children, but I'll defend to the death their right to teach them. What do you propose, snatch all the children and put them in secular camps? Let the state raise them in a sterile setting?

[Griff]

...and folks wonder why we don't send our kids to public schools even though we are not religous nuts and are actually pretty open minded.

[Pangloss62]

they should teach their children what you believe.

You haven't been paying attention. I do not "believe" anything. Period. I said parents should not teach "beliefs." How hard is that to grasp? I'm not going to force anyone to do anything, I'm just saying it would be a better world if we got rid of "belief."

...and folks wonder why we don't send our kids to public schools

And why would an advocate of not teaching beliefs make for a "bad" public school teacher? I've taught college undergrads with great success and appreciation, and have engaged children in the study of history through volunteer work and through my job.

[Griff]

Originally Posted by Pangloss62

And why would an advocate of not teaching beliefs make for a "bad" public school teacher? I've taught college undergrads with great success and appreciation, and have engaged children in the study of history through volunteer work and through my job.

The parents who are compelled to pay your salary should not be held in contempt by you. It is fine to challenge beliefs but to suggest that parents not teach there own children what they believe is shockingly high-handed.

[Pangloss62]

The parents who are compelled to pay your salary should not be held in contempt by you.

Why not? It's hard not too when you see what little un-thinking horors their parents have created. Besides, it's not like I'm out to become some educational Mussolini, I was just making and observation and suggesting a possible solution.

to suggest that parents not teach there own children what they believe is shockingly high-handed.

It's just a suggestion.

The ultimate high-handedness is to not allow your children to think for themselves. People treat their children these days like little projects, molding them to become what THEY want them to be.

"We're only making plans for Nigel...We only want what's best for him." XTC

I heard that song yesterday and thought about this thread. No wonder I liked that band.

[dar512]

Originally Posted by Pangloss62

I said parents should not teach "beliefs."

I think you're fooling yourself.

A lot of things that are beliefs need to be taught. I believe that it's bad to shoot at people for fun. That's a belief that I have passed on to my children. I hope that they pick up a lot of my beliefs. Lots of things that are not 'facts' still need to be taught to children. Real life can never be neatly packaged in the way that you hope.

[Pangloss62]

I'm not kidding myself.

That's a belief that I have passed on to my children.

You really sat your kids down and said "You really shouldn't shoot people for fun."? Was there something they did to make you do this?

Regardless, that sounds more like rational advice than a "belief."

Shooting people for fun will likely get you arrested, and cause you lots of stress trying not to be arrested. It will also engender a generally negative culture which could eventually get you killed for fun. More important, that one would have "fun" shooting people indicates a psychological problem that could lead to other behaviors that would have a negative impact on the individual, other individuals, and the functioning of society in general.

Should one shoot or kill people as punishment? In self-defense? As a military action? Maybe you're the one making neat little packages. I never said or even implied life is simple.

Generally, I try to stay away from using "right" or "wrong" as absolutes. Such concepts do absolutely nothing to encourage or prevent what are considered "right" and "wrong" anyway.

I think the problem here is that I'm using the word "belief" too narrowly and many cellarites are using it too generally. I still think that the essence of the word "belief" relates to emotional convictions rather than rational thought, and that the former has caused more problems in the world than the latter.