Hezbollah night-vision gear manufactured in Britain

[MaggieL]

Originally Posted by Ibram

Cluster bombs DO NOT EQUAL mines. They aren't used as such.

Actually, some cluster munitions *can* be used that way. But I've not seen any evidence that they have been used that way in this case. Or much evidence at all from the "IDF are terrorists (too)" side of this discussion that holds much water at all, frankly.

Cluster munitions, either artillery or gravity bombs, are pretty much standard for any modern military these days...which makes them a standard propaganda target in asymmetric warfare. Since the terrorist side doesn't have them, wave a bloody shirt about how inherently immoral they must be; since most liberals--oh...excuse me..."progressives"--don't actually know dick about weapons (after all, posessing such knowlege is clear evidence that you're evil) it's an easy sell. It's vastly easier to distract such people with horror porn about weapons when it's how they are used that's actually important.

UT makes that point, the tactic is: throw around a bunch of wild accusations, posted as widely as possible, supported by "evidence" that examined closely would convince only the choir you're preaching to, and hope something sticks long enough to achieve your propaganda objective. Accuse anybody who questions it of being a "zionist", a "zionist dupe" or a "racist".

[Hippikos]

UT makes that point, the tactic is: throw around a bunch of wild accusations, posted as widely as possible, supported by "evidence" that examined closely would convince only the choir you're preaching to, and hope something sticks long enough to achieve your propaganda objective. Accuse anybody who questions it of being a "zionist", a "zionist dupe" or a "racist".

MaggieL constantly tries to minimize the effect of the cluster bombs as if they're candy thrown to the children. The only tactic throwing here were the cluster bombs in the last 3 days of the 33 days war. Cluster bombs are the last resort if nothing else helps without boots on the ground. Compare it with you're tired of chasing the mosquito and fill the whole room with anti mosquito spray. Very bad for whatever else lives there, but it might kill the mosquito.

Accuse anybody who questions it of being a "zionist", a "zionist dupe" or a "racist".

And here we go again, the Zionist card is drawn again, if nothing else helps. I am waiting for the ultimate "anti-semitic" ace to be thrown on the table. That always seems to work for MaggieL.

If it was according MaggieL, all these pinkocommielibs should s.t.f.u. about these cute little bomblets and let the IDF do their work. Let's complain about are these nasty ka-ty-usha's. These are the real killers.

A trained military doesn't waste valuable munitions "out of frustration". Soldiers are trained to shoot but also trained to always know how many rounds are left. Whatever they did was a tactic.

You keep living in your ideal world, UT, where only trained military don't waste their ammunition. In the real world the frustration ran high in the IDF because Olmert and Peretz refused to extend the ground invasion and, according to brigade commanders, the lack of movement put the forces on the defensive and gave the upper hand to Hizbullah fighters. Read any Israelian online paper and you'll read the frustration of the military.

[MaggieL]

Originally Posted by Hippikos

MaggieL constantly tries to minimize the effect of the cluster bombs as if they're candy thrown to the children.

Not at all. Deadly weapons are in fact deadly; that is inherent in their design.

But use of cluster munitions isn't prima facie evidence of an "indiscriminate" assault, and an argument for moral equivalance, which is how you and others have been trying to spin it.

[Ibby]

Originally Posted by Hippikos

If it was according MaggieL, all these pinkocommielibs should s.t.f.u. about these cute little bomblets and let the IDF do their work. Let's complain about are these nasty ka-ty-usha's. These are the real killers.

While I don't agree as such, that is a completely valid point that I can easily see the sense of. Hezbollah IS indiscriminately firing the rockets; Israel is trying to hit the rockets. Failing to hit the target and firing indiscriminately are two completely different things.

[tw]

Originally Posted by Ibram

Hezbollah IS indiscriminately firing the rockets; Israel is trying to hit the rockets. Failing to hit the target and firing indiscriminately are two completely different things.

That might be true. Having missed their targets, Israel managed to strike ten cities in Lebanon's most northern province of Akkar. Clearly that was not indiscriminate.

Trying to take out rockets that could not be seen and that could be anywhere within a five mile attack area - that too is not indiscriminate. Clearly they were targeting a rocket launcher somewhere within five miles. A field of cluster bombs spread out within that area was definitely targeting the launcher. A launcher that pilots could not see but must have been targeting all the way to Akkar.

[xoxoxoBruce]

Not only had the IDF this weapon, it also used it, especially in the last 72 hours

Maybe they were trying to create a no-mans-land?

[Ibby]

Originally Posted by tw

That might be true. Having missed their targets, Israel managed to strike ten cities in Lebanon's most northern province of Akkar. Clearly that was not indiscriminate.

Trying to take out rockets that could not be seen and that could be anywhere within a five mile attack area - that too is not indiscriminate. Clearly they were targeting a rocket launcher somewhere within five miles. A field of cluster bombs spread out within that area was definitely targeting the launcher. A launcher that pilots could not see but must have been targeting all the way to Akkar.

Mentioning Akkar over and over makes it no less wrong and no less of a red herring. Hezbollah operate all across the country.

I never said that Israel's tactics were right or well-executed. However, they try to hit their targets, which are Hezbollah weapons or bases, people fighting against them, trying to kill them. You can't say the same for Hezbollah, whose targets are simply any Israeli anywhere. Hezbollah didn't fire the rockets at Israeli bases or convoys or troops, they fired them at cities.

Of course, Israel struck cities too, right?
The difference: Hezbollah HIDES in the cities, surrounding themselves with civillians so that people like YOU go "look! Israel are bad guys, not hezbollah! theyre killing civillians!" Israel DOES kill civillians. They do NOT target civillians.

Lets say I shoot at you and your friends, killing a couple and wounding a couple more, then I grab an innocent bystander and hold him in front of me as a meatshield. How much could YOU be faulted for hitting him, and how much would be MY fault?

[tw]

Originally Posted by Ibram

Mentioning Akkar over and over makes it no less wrong and no less of a red herring. Hezbollah operate all across the country.

Your first mistake was to pretend Akkar did not happen. Why? Are you that extremist as to hate people, or did you just not know basic realities? Akkar is but another example of a fact. We all but know what Israel’s reason was to attack all Lebanese. It is a matter of “consciousness”. Some immorally believe that each dead Phoenician would cause Lebanese to drive out Hezbollah. This Israeli government was that embarrassingly stupid as to even believe their air force general's theory of "consciousness".

Well maybe we could find some Hezbollah checks in an Akkar financial institution. That justifies attacks on Druze and Marinates in Akkar? Give me a break. Akkar is mentioned when reasoning is that bankrupt. Why need I repeat the obvious? Why are you that much in denial? Akkar says Israel attacked all Lebanese - intentionally.

Pilots at 10,000 and 20,000 feet could see and attack Hezbollah? Only when myths justify an extremist agenda. Pilots even at lower altitudes could not find these tiny rockets. Hell. US military with a massive effort, using satellite and heat seeking sensors, could not find even one Scud missile – a target tens of time larger and in open desert. Are you so foolish or so brainwashed by extremists to worship nonsense - that Israeli pilots could see their targets? Ibram. I will assume you have no idea what pilots could do and were telling reporters. Unlike MaggieL, I will assume you just have no grasp of what pilots can see. You have no idea why a ground spotter is essential for ground attack. I will assume your post was due to simple ignorance that left you easily recruited to extremist rhetoric.

Israeli pilots were attacking anything in Lebanon so that Lebanese would rise up and drive out Hezbollah. Israeli leadership is that immoral - and appears to have inherited George Jr intelligence. Israelis even attacked Red Cross and Red Crescent ambulances. Even attack a convoy of hundreds of innocents, well north of the Latani River and traveling north. Mistake? Of course not. That was the strategy of 'consciousness'. It was both intentional and part of Israel's strategic object as advocated by Isreal's Dan Halutz. You call these people moral?

Akkar. Will that word mean Ibram is lying again? Or will it mean Ibram did not know what Israel’s objectives really were? Akkar means Israel was attacking indiscriminately. Akkar means you have posted as an extremist hater of humanity, or you are that ignorant of basic news.

Every dead Phoenician meant the Lebanese were one step closer to driving out Hezbollah - if one loves people like Milosevic. Israeli leaders intentionally attacked Alawites, Catholics, Copts, Druze, Shi'ites, Orthodox, and Assyrians in an objective called 'consciousness'. An illusion rationalized in a braindead believe that Hezbollah is somehow Iranian or Syrian. Israel attacked indiscriminately because pilots could not see any targets. Akkar repeated as long as one posts such myths. Stop posting likes and Akkar is no longer mentioned.

Posted is that pilots could only attack indiscriminately. Posted are reasons why Israelis intentionally attacked and killed Lebanese of all ethnicities. Posted is but another example of Israeli 'niger hate' of Arabs. Akkar repeated with each direct contradiction to reality. Extremist who control Israel - even intentionally murdered a Prime Minister of peace - are little different from other lovers of genocide such as Milosevic. 5000 massacred Palestinian woman and children was no accident that night. Israel has no problem being lead by mass murders. You like such people? Israel intentionally attacked all Lebanese. It was their strategic objective. Akkar attacks otherwise would not exist. Indiscriminate murder was Israel's objective - as if that would eliminate Hezbollah.

[Undertoad]

Originally Posted by Ibram

Mentioning Akkar over and over makes it no less wrong and no less of a red herring.

If you google "hezbollah akkar" this thread is the #1 result.

[glatt]

Originally Posted by Undertoad

If you google "hezbollah akkar" this thread is the #1 result.

I'm more proud of "erect nipples." Even if that thread's not as high.

[MaggieL]

Originally Posted by tw

A launcher that pilots could not see but must have been targeting ...

If targeting something the weapon operator can't see is indiscriminate, then any use of artillery and rocketry (with range beyond that of an RPG) is indiscriminate.

What a crock of BS. The lengths to which some folks will go to try to create an erzatz moral equivalance betwen IDF and Hezbollah is tragicomic.

[tw]

Originally Posted by MaggieL

If targeting something the weapon operator can't see is indiscriminate, then any use of artillery and rocketry (with range beyond that of an RPG) is indiscriminate.

Artillery uses ground spotters so that shells are not wasted on empty land or kill friendly forces. MaggieL should know this instead of using her extremism for rationalization. Air power requires ground spotters so that munitions are not scattered everywhere uselessly. Even Tora Bora happened only because CIA agents - without orders - went into Tora Bora to find bin Laden and to be ground spotters.

Crock of BS is again what MaggieL posts. If she really was an honest American, then she posts as any military man knows. Those planes indiscriminately attacked anything in a five mile area because Hezbollah rockets could not be identified. For same reasons, even Akkar province was bombed. Attack the innocents and they will drive out Hezbollah? More right wing extremist rationalization that killed innocent Lebanese.

MaggieL, this crock of BS is directly attributed to an extremist and therefore irrational mindset. You are smarter than that. Why do you mock the intelligence of the Cellar with proclamations that only the mental midget president could believe? You, MaggieL, know quite well that air power could not and could never target Hezbollah rockets and rocket launchers without ground spotters. You know that and your extremism will not let you be honest. Why do you outrightly lie to all in the Cellar? You are smarter than that.

How were Scud missiles finally located and destroyed? British SAS were dispatched to successfully find Scuds in the Scud box. Why? Air power alone could not find even one large Scud missiles in a desert. MaggieL thinks everyone in the Cellar is so dumb as to believe air planes without ground spotters could find tiny Hezbollah rockets in rough terrain when air power could not even find one tens of times larger Scud in open desert.

Crock of BS from MaggieL is so similar to what the radical American extremists kept saying to sacrifice so many of my generation in Vietnam. Reasons provided by a political agenda - whether it be from Curtis LeMay or MaggieL - is that irrational and dangerous. Notice how she even lies about indiscriminate air attacks by the IDF. Notice how she denies ground spotters - by pretending such functions do not even exist. Wacko extremists also run the White House. Notice how we are winning the war against a world wide terrorist network in Iraq and Afghanistan. Vietnam Deja Vue complete with MaggieL playing the part of a 1970 right wing extremist.