violence problem? ya think?

Originally Posted by Urbane Guerrilla

Rkzen, did killing and bombing Nazi Germany (they were famous for killing and bombing) turn us into Nazi America? No. It didn't because we Americans are of the human-liberty and democratic-governance mindset, both then and now. That other societies lack this mindset and these expectations of their governance is the reason they come up with the crazy shit they do.

A man who wants to be moral has to understand countervailing violence, and the just-war concept of resisting/neutralizing oppression and attempts at oppression. The above extremists have set forth in so many words a program for oppression. They may be trying to sell it by making the oppression slight, but oppression has a way of growing over the years and the generations.

Far better simply to string the oppressors up as an example. You can't oppress anybody with a rope around your neck.

Nope... though had we killed those in our concentration camps we would have been, had we continued to turn the Jews away like we did from Key West we would have been, had we tortured the Nazis and treated them in defiance of the Geneva convention we would have been, had we held them indefinitely we would have been, had we declared war on our own people like now we would have been.
Dubya used 9/11, perhaps let it happen, perhaps held the door, so he could have his own little Reichstag fire and has raped the Constitution and Bill of Rights while using fear to suppress what should have been our natural reaction to having our rights stripped. Rights being stripped that need not have been because the job could be done with existing laws EXACTLY as they would be for all foreign agents. We are well on our way... we have invaded a nation that was NO threat and fully admitted it... right now we occupy that nation with no explanation by the current administration as to why. By international law the current resistance force that is killing our soldiers is perfectly within their rights and is doing EXACTLY what you and I would be doing if someone invaded and occupied our nation. But, they are not who is murdering those soldiers... not really, those keeping them there are doing it every day. While killing every soldier that dies in Afghanistan, every day, for being understaffed, under supplied and under supported because of Dubya and Co's little game of revenge and the Kissinger pipeline.
It is pretty simple. Yes, if we adopt the form and tactics of the Nazis, we ARE Nazis.

[mrnoodle]

Originally Posted by rkzenrage

By international law the current resistance force that is killing our soldiers is perfectly within their rights and is doing EXACTLY what you and I would be doing if someone invaded and occupied our nation.

Strapping bombs onto children and detonating them in employment lines? Maybe you. Not me.

This noble "resistance force" is so brave. So patriotic. All they want is for the mean Americans to go away so they can return to the simple life of farming and rug weaving, right? Luckily, they have a good portion of the US Congress mirroring the sentiments, if not the exact words, of their imams. It's good to have friends in high places.

Originally Posted by mrnoodle

Luckily, they have a good portion of the US Congress mirroring the sentiments, if not the exact words, of their imams. It's good to have friends in high places.

Er... What? Could you please elucidate on this statement?

[mrnoodle]

Let's play a game called "Democrat or Terrorist?"

Unfortunately, the sentence construction and semantic differences make it an easy game. But the point remains.

Bush you are a lying failure and a charlatan. It has been three and a half years... What happened to us? We have gained more strength and we are more insistent on martyrdom..."

Why don't you tell them how many million citizens of America and its allies you intend to kill in search of the imaginary victory and in breathless pursuit of the mirage towards which you are driving your people's sons in order to increase your profits?

Can't you be honest at least once in your life, and admit that you are a deceitful liar who intentionally deceived your nation when you drove them to war in Iraq?

He was bright in putting his sons as governors in states and he didn't forget to transfer his experience from rulers of our region to Florida to falsify elections to benefit from it in critical times.

What happened was that he was impressed by the monarchies and the military regimes, and he was jealous of them staying in power for tens of years, embezzling the public money without any accountability. And he moved the tyranny and suppression of freedom to his own country, and they called it the Patriot Act, under the disguise of fighting terrorism. And Bush, the father, found it good to install his children as governors and leaders.

More in a bit, I gotta get some work done.

Well, Noodle, the spooky part to me is that there actually is some truth in a few of those statements. I am far from being an advocate of terrorism, but they do make some good points about what's going on in the US. I feel deeply concerned about what is going on at the National level and the direction this country seems to be turning. The US was once a great republic. I don't like what it seems to be turning into these days.

[Spexxvet]

Let's play a game called "Bush or Bin Laden".

Guess which person said which quote:

Facing clear evidence of peril, we cannot wait for the final proof, the smoking gun that could come in the form of a mushroom cloud.

[we] will never seek a permission slip to defend the security of our people.

Do I think faith will be an important part of being a good [leader]? Yes, I do.

Faith crosses every border and touches every heart in every nation.

For diplomacy to be effective, words must be credible - and no one can now doubt the word of [deleted].

Free nations are peaceful nations. Free nations don't attack each other. Free nations don't develop weapons of mass destruction.

I just want you to know that, when we talk about war, we're really talking about peace.

I think you can judge from somebody's actions a kind of a stability and sense of purpose perhaps created by strong religious roots. … there's a certain patience, a certain discipline, I think, that religion helps you achieve.

[we are] somewhat sad, but we're angry. There's a certain level of blood lust, but we won't let it drive our reaction. We're steady, clear-eyed and patient, but [soon] we'll have to start displaying [body parts of the dead].

Redefining the role of the United States from enablers to keep the peace to enablers to keep the peace from peacekeepers is going to be an assignment.

[This leader] is a homicidal dictator who is addicted to weapons of mass destruction.

[we] should have the right to enact... laws... particularly to end the inhumane practice of ending a life that otherwise could live.

The course of this conflict is not known, yet its outcome is certain. Freedom and fear, justice and cruelty, have always been at war, and we know that [our supreme being] is not neutral between them.

We know that dictators are quick to choose aggression, while free nations strive to resolve differences in peace.

we respect the vibrant faith of [deleted] which inspires countless individuals to lead lives of honesty, integrity, and morality. This year, may [deleted] also be a time in which we recognize the values of progress, pluralism, and acceptance that bind us together as a … global community. By working together to advance mutual understanding, we point the way to a brighter future for all.

Islam brings hope and comfort to millions of people in [deleted], and to more than a billion people worldwide. Ramadan is also an occasion to remember that Islam gave birth to a rich civilization of learning that has benefited mankind