Totally Gay

[Elspode]

I just want to live in a world where people can be gay if they want to, and no one really cares, as long as they aren't being forced to get it on with them.

On the other hand, when someone builds their entire life and image on morality that doesn't include being gay, then turns out to have those proclivities, they deserve to get reamed just for being stupid, judgemental and big stinking lying hypocrites.

[9th Engineer]

Just like if you ever find yourself going against your moral code you should have the same done to you for having such a stupid sense of morals?

[Elspode]

Yup. Unlike the disgraced preacher, my path requires me to take personal resposibility for my actions. I have no saviour to take away my stupidity. If I screw up, I get reamed. I pay the price, both in this world and the next. Pretty simple philosophy, and I think it makes me a good deal more careful.

It also helps that I don't go around professing to others how they should live their lives. It would be one thing if this guy had quietly been against homosexuality and drugs, then fell on his face. It is quite another to pound on a pulpit, all Righteous and imbued with Truth, then fall on his face.

[9th Engineer]

He is taking personal responsibility for his actions, he has stepped down and hasn't changed from what he was saying before.

On the other hand, when someone builds their entire life and image on morality that doesn't include being gay, then turns out to have those proclivities, they deserve to get reamed just for being stupid, judgemental and big stinking lying hypocrites.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but you insinuate that the fault lies with them having a bad set of morals, not with struggling with something that they don't believe they should do. He believes that homosexual sex is a choice he made and that it was a sin, there's a separation of the person and the act in there. He's acting the same way as he would if he started doing meth or something else forbidden, then was forced to atone for his actions.
Even churchs that condem homosexuality almost always separate the sex itself from the person. It's not the urges that they find evil, it's going out and having a gay partner. I'm sure that if he had never given in to it and announced to his congregation that he himself is subject to these urges but was strong in the face of temptation he would have recieved an ovation.
You are projecting your belief that if a person has homosexual urges they must satisfy those urges, these people don't think that way.

[Elspode]

No...I think that the guy deserves what happened to him because he went around telling other people that gay sex and drugs were bad, but he was doing it anyway. If he hadn't made a (probably lucrative) career out of peddling morality, then got caught with his pants down and a dollar billed rolled up and up his nose, then he'd just be another sad sack loser.

I'm happy he's taking personal responsibility. Its the least he can do after at first obfuscating the truth. This is the first step on the road to becoming a decent, upright human being.

My problem is ultimately this: Don't tell me that you hold Truth, then violate it. I'll be unsympathetic every time. Tell me you *believe* something, walk your talk, and I'll admire you...as long as you don't tell me it *is* The Truth, and that you alone have It. Don't claim The Truth, and then act as though it is your divine duty to make sure everyone else adheres to it, most especially while you, yourself, are out doing the very things against which you rail.

Of course, I am not referencing *you* specifically when I say "you"...

[9th Engineer]

If he claimed he never violated the rules that would mean something different altogether

[Elspode]

He claimed, from a pulpit, that it was wrong to violate the rules, then did it. He told others how to live, but was unable to live that way.

That's the problem in dealing with absolutes. No wiggle room. No room for doubt...or real enlightenment...or real learning. Just failure and retribution.

No thanks.

[mrnoodle]

Originally Posted by Elspode

Yup. Unlike the disgraced preacher, my path requires me to take personal resposibility for my actions. I have no saviour to take away my stupidity. If I screw up, I get reamed. I pay the price, both in this world and the next. Pretty simple philosophy, and I think it makes me a good deal more careful.

That's a mischaracterization of Christianity. Consequences don't disappear, if anything they are more pronounced. The preacher is getting doubly slammed because he is doubly hypocritical. Beyond any personal price he pays for his lies, he has to answer for the fact that he has turned more people against God because they take his example as representative of the faith. God will judge him not just for what he did, but for the fact that he damaged the faith of others.

Matt. 18:7 -- Woe to the world because of the things that cause people to sin! Such things must come, but woe to the man through whom they come!

Preacher is in deep trouble, and aside from the status of his salvation, he will pay in a big way, if Jesus was telling the truth.

[Elspode]

Originally Posted by mrnoodle

Preacher is in deep trouble, and aside from the status of his salvation, he will pay in a big way, if Jesus was telling the truth.

But still...he will be forgiven, as long as he accepts Jesus as his personal savior, so this life may suck, but Eternity will be cool.

[mrnoodle]

Originally Posted by Elspode

But still...he will be forgiven, as long as he accepts Jesus as his personal savior, so this life may suck, but Eternity will be cool.

Because to God, any sin at all causes separation from his perfect will. He makes no distinction between lying to someone and cutting off their head, insofar as "sin" is concerned. To recognize your sin and accept forgiveness is all that's required. That's the whole point of Jesus dying. He became sin, and took the punishment in our place. That's not carte blanche to act any way you want, and you are right to doubt anything the preacher says. But man is not the example to follow, Christ is.

Jeffery Dahmer could have truly repented and been saved before his death, and spend eternity in a much better state than many lifelong "Christians" who weren't what they said they were.

[Elspode]

Originally Posted by mrnoodle

Jeffery Dahmer could have truly repented and been saved before his death, and spend eternity in a much better state than many lifelong "Christians" who weren't what they said they were.

I've always assumed there was a special place in their Hell for hypocritical Christians, especially dishonest ministers who use their platforms to fleece the seekers of divine grace.