Picking Up in the Middle of the Argument...

[Ibby]

This is off something I was arguing about in the Nationstates Forum a few minutes ago (the paleoconservatives thread), but its not letting me post, so I figured I'd post it here and see what you think....

The crux of the matter comes to simply this, to me;
Liberals think you should be able to do whatever you want.
Conservatives think you should be able to do whatever THEY want.

As far as I'm concerned, I would be perfectly happy with the government getting the fuck outta welfare and everything else, as long as people would volunteer to pick up the slack out of the goodness of their hearts.
People suck, so they wont.

In my opinion, a conservative government, one that tells the populace what they can and can't do for themselves, is no better than a dictatorship. A government that legislates against gay marriage, or critisizing the government, or not being religion {X}, or having brown hair, is unacceptable and a breach simple human decency.
Therefore, any form of conservatism, whether it be neo, paleo, theo, or neopaleotheomccarthyist, is simply the antithesis of freedom.

[DanaC]

Excellent.

[glatt]

Originally Posted by Ibram

This is off something I was arguing about in the Nationstates Forum a few minutes ago (the paleoconservatives thread), but its not letting me post, so I figured I'd post it here and see what you think....

It's not what I think, it's what I feel. Betrayal. You've been seeing another forum?

edit: Oh, and to answer seriously, liberals think you should be able to do anything you want unless it has to do with gun ownership.

[wolf]

Originally Posted by glatt

edit: Oh, and to answer seriously, liberals think you should be able to do anything you want unless it has to do with gun ownership.

And public expressions of Christianity (all other religious ok, Christianity bad), don't forget that one.

[Undertoad]

I have often seen the argument for enforced charity, or income redistribution, or socialism, that begins with the premise that "people suck".

Call it "anti-social socialism" -- it's common from what I have seen, and I don't understand it at all.

People suck, therefore it is right and proper for an elite government (that somehow does not suck, even though it is made of the same sucky people) to manage half their financial life. However, same government cannot legislate against saying "fuck" on the radio, because that's fascism.

[xoxoxoBruce]

Seems to me, people put to much stock in "conservative" and "liberal" as descriptions of where anyone stands on anything. Hell, you'd have trouble getting any three people to agree on what those terms imply.

[lookout123]

Originally Posted by xoxoxoBruce

Seems to me, people put to much stock in "conservative" and "liberal" as descriptions of where anyone stands on anything. Hell, you'd have trouble getting any three people to agree on what those terms imply.

oh, c'mon, it should be easy to get people to agree on what a term is for a political ideology. let's see - do we have any libertarians in the cellar?

Nobody here but us Commies.

[Clodfobble]

Originally Posted by Ibram

Liberals think you should be able to do whatever you want.
Conservatives think you should be able to do whatever THEY want.

Originally Posted by glatt

Oh, and to answer seriously, liberals think you should be able to do anything you want unless it has to do with gun ownership.

Or the environment, or business, etc. etc. etc.

Libertarians are the only ones who try to fully embody the principle that everyone should be able to do anything they want. And they have their own unique set of flaws. You gotta get past the idea that any broadly-defined "side" can always be right, Ibram. Conservatives and Liberals don't truly exist, only a wide range of individuals who rail against them as the enemy.

[glatt]

Originally Posted by Clodfobble

Or the environment, or business, etc. etc. etc.

True enough. I was just throwing out the first example that came to mind. There are certainly more. Smoking is one as well.

Originally Posted by wolf

And public expressions of Christianity (all other religious ok, Christianity bad), don't forget that one.

Not true at all. It's government sanctioned or funded expressions of Christianity or really any religion that liberals like me oppose.

[yesman065]

Originally Posted by Ibram

The crux of the matter comes to simply this, to me;
Liberals think you should be able to do whatever you want.
Conservatives think you should be able to do whatever THEY want.

Uh no I thought it was more like:
Liberals think you should be able to do whatever you want.
Conservatives think you should be able to do whatever you want - As long as it doesn't infringe on other peoples rights.

[Happy Monkey]

Originally Posted by yesman065

Uh no I thought it was more like:
Liberals think you should be able to do whatever you want.
Conservatives think you should be able to do whatever you want - As long as it doesn't infringe on other peoples rights.

Then what's the deal with the hatin' on the gays?

[yesman065]

Originally Posted by Happy Monkey

Then what's the deal with the hatin' on the gays?

I have no idea - ask a Republican.

[DanaC]

Conservatives think you should be able to do whatever you want - As long as it doesn't infringe on other peoples rights.

Is that what they say, or is that what they think?

[orthodoc]

That quote has it backwards. The farther left a government moves, the more completely it controls the lives of its citizens (subjects? slaves?). Every government must legislate what people can and can't do, to some degree. (Whether an individual agrees with particular laws or the given reasons for them is another matter.) Even a libertarian government has to have some agreed rules on national and personal security. A conservative government adds additional rules regarding issues of mutual benefit, such as utility and transportation infrastructure, etc. It is the left-wing government that wants total control, wanting to tell people not only what they can and can't do, but what they can and can't think (thought crime exists in countries like Canada and Sweden).

Every socialist government despises people and thinks they have to be 'managed': 'you suck, so we, the Omniscient and All-Beneficent State, will manage your money/health/education/ideas/opinions/... for you'.

Isn't it strange that every truly socialist/communist government has disintegrated? Must be something to that free-market stuff after all.