Religious Discrimination in the USA

[xoxoxoBruce]

Originally Posted by Aliantha

Have you ever been to a catholic mass Bruce? lol

Yes I have. Where in the catholic mass does it tell children if they sin they will go to hell?

[xoxoxoBruce]

Originally Posted by Aliantha

Over here you can simply take an oath instead of swearing on the bible if you choose.

It's the same here.

Originally Posted by rkzenrage

Nope, I don't admit that at all... I was rejected.
Not all buildings, just remove religion from facades on government buildings.

A lot of people are rejected, I suspect they decided to boot you out when you asked the Judge to present his Sheep Skin and a transcript of his grades.

Who decides what symbols are religious? How about a sheep or sheave of wheat? I've seen them in a lot of religious documents. Oh, and the scales of justice....looks like a cross to me. Books might have the same words some bibles do. Any other Bogey-mans only you can see?

[DanaC]

Yes I have. Where in the catholic mass does it tell children if they sin they will go to hell?

Don't know about the mass, but I do know that my Catholic relatives were quite convinced that without regular confession we'd go to hell and burn. My grandma was genuinely frightened for me because I said I didn't believe in God, she really did believe that I would be going to hell.

I have Catholic friends who were raised with images of hell and torment as the price of sinning.

Thing is......I understand why rkzenrage sees that as abusive, I think religion is a damaging force in peoples' lives and a damaging element in childhood. But at the same time, if those people really believe that their child will suffer eternal torment in hell should they stray too far from a given path, then it would actually be abusive of them not to inculcate their children in the ways of salvation. For those who believe, then it is their absolute duty to ensure their child's well-being and that includes the well-being of their souls.

From a psychological perspective, however, I do think such a focus on sin and retribution is potentially damaging to a growing mind. As long as parents believe in it though, children will be raised in it.

[xoxoxoBruce]

I have Catholic friends who were raised with images of hell and torment as the price of sinning.

See this is what happens when observing from the outside, you completely miss the part about all you have to do is ask to be forgiven and you get a get-out-of-going-to-hell-free card.
The premise is, if you be bad you'll burn unless you realize and admit you be bad. Many don't get it, they'd rather whine about child abuse that find the truth. sigh


btw, there are a bevy of what I consider legitimate beefs against the RC Church, but this ain't one of them.

[DanaC]

See this is what happens when observing from the outside, you completely miss the part about all you have to do is ask to be forgiven and you get a get-out-of-going-to-hell-free card.

From the outside? My dad was a RC and my Gran was devout. I spent a lot of time growing up around my gran. Been on more pilgrimages than you can shake a stick at. When she was wheelchair bound I would on occassion take her to the local church for mass (the Father would come out to her when she couldn't make it, but she did get some comfort from attending with the rest of the congregation when she was able to). So....no I wasn't raised a Catholic. But nor was I entirely observing from outside.

I fully understand the get-out-of-jail-free card. But....there are complications to that which a seven year old will tend to pick up on. For instance, what if you sin and are knocked over before you get the chance to go to confession? What if there is no priest around to deliver the last rites? When i was about 9 years old my next door neighbour and best friend (also occassionally best enemy ;P) Maggs, used to really fret about stuff like that.

The premise is, if you be bad you'll burn unless you realize and admit you be bad.

I have some difficulty with the idea of teaching children that they are bad if they do something wrong. This may just be a word usage thing, but to me the idea of a child 'being bad' as opposed to 'doing something wrong' is potentially damaging. Just the way I look at things. That's one reason I don't like most religions and moral codes, they employ too many value judgements about the person rather than the action.

[glatt]

Originally Posted by rkzenrage

Nice misquote....

????

She nailed you. She said you had said something. You denied it, and she quoted and linked to two places where you had said it. How is that a misquote? The words are right there on the screen. You typed them.

[Clodfobble]

I suspect it's because he keeps thinking that I'm trying to parlay his comment into a larger condemnation of religion on his part, because as far as he can see there is nothing wrong with what he is saying so clearly I must be accusing him of something grander.

You're not seeing what's right in front of you, rkz. I'm saying that teaching children that sin can lead to hell is not de facto child abuse. Period.

Originally Posted by glatt

????

She nailed you. She said you had said something. You denied it, and she quoted and linked to two places where you had said it. How is that a misquote? The words are right there on the screen. You typed them.

The response she used of mine was not to the quote above it in her post.
It was to the statement that religion was child abuse, which I never stated.
Telling children that sinning will lead to their eternal torture is child abuse and I stand by that statement... that is not the same as "religion".

Originally Posted by xoxoxoBruce

It's the same here.

A lot of people are rejected, I suspect they decided to boot you out when you asked the Judge to present his Sheep Skin and a transcript of his grades.

Who decides what symbols are religious? How about a sheep or sheave of wheat? I've seen them in a lot of religious documents. Oh, and the scales of justice....looks like a cross to me. Books might have the same words some bibles do. Any other Bogey-mans only you can see?

Keep reachin'.

[Aliantha]

I agree with Dana here. Having been raised catholic by a very conservative family, I always thought I was going to hell just for wishing my brother would get a hiding for being a shit to me.

The thing is, if you sin and don't get to confess before you die, you'll go to hell. That's what you think about it when you're a child.

[xoxoxoBruce]

Originally Posted by DanaC

From the outside? My dad was a RC and my Gran was devout. I spent a lot of time growing up around my gran. Been on more pilgrimages than you can shake a stick at. When she was wheelchair bound I would on occassion take her to the local church for mass (the Father would come out to her when she couldn't make it, but she did get some comfort from attending with the rest of the congregation when she was able to). So....no I wasn't raised a Catholic. But nor was I entirely observing from outside.

Observing is not practicing. I took a wooden boat down the Colorado river. It ain't the same on PBS (tv).

I fully understand the get-out-of-jail-free card. But....there are complications to that which a seven year old will tend to pick up on. For instance, what if you sin and are knocked over before you get the chance to go to confession? What if there is no priest around to deliver the last rites? When i was about 9 years old my next door neighbour and best friend (also occassionally best enemy ;P) Maggs, used to really fret about stuff like that.

Aren't 9 year old girls worried about a million things?

I have some difficulty with the idea of teaching children that they are bad if they do something wrong. This may just be a word usage thing, but to me the idea of a child 'being bad' as opposed to 'doing something wrong' is potentially damaging. Just the way I look at things. That's one reason I don't like most religions and moral codes, they employ too many value judgements about the person rather than the action.

My bad, I used the slang "be bad" for misbehaving, which seems to have confused you. I apologize.
If a parent is going to freak their kid with heavy duty fire and brimstone, don't you think they would be the type to freak the kid with something else if hell were not an option. What's the difference between;

If you get out of that bed you'll burn in hell.
and
If you get out of that bed the monster under the bed will eat your feet.

[DanaC]

My bad, I used the slang "be bad" for misbehaving, which seems to have confused you. I apologize.
If a parent is going to freak their kid with heavy duty fire and brimstone, don't you think they would be the type to freak the kid with something else if hell were not an option. What's the difference between;

If you get out of that bed you'll burn in hell.
and
If you get out of that bed the monster under the bed will eat your feet.

I totally agree.