Do You Own a Gun?

[Spexxvet]

Originally Posted by Radar

The basis of all the laws in America is the recognition (not the creation) that we are born with unalienable rights. Our rights don't come from "society" or from "government" and most certainly aren't a concept or an opinion. They are a reality and are tangible.

Just as gravity existed before Newton "discovered" it, so did our rights before men talked about them or recognized them.

"among these are..."

What, specifically, are these rights? If they are tangible, they can be listed, right? Whether you want to say "hold these truths to be self-evident" or "recognition", this is still denotes subjectivity - it is an opinion, since other people do not have the same view.

[Radar]

Originally Posted by Spexxvet

"among these are..."

What, specifically, are these rights? If they are tangible, they can be listed, right? Whether you want to say "hold these truths to be self-evident" or "recognition", this is still denotes subjectivity - it is an opinion, since other people do not have the same view.

There are too many to list. Among them are chewing bubblegum, riding a pogo stick, and posting ridiculous claims that we aren't born with rights on websites.

The list is much shorter to say what are rights are not than what they are. Our rights aren't to be defined or limited by governments.

In short, we have the right to do ANYTHING we want as long as our actions don't physically harm or endanger the person, property, or rights of non-consenting others. In other words, the only limitations on our rights are the equal rights of others.

I don't know what country you are from, but here in America, the fact that we have human rights is axiomatic. It's a given. It is recognized not only in America, but throughout the vast majority of the world.

All governments violate human rights to some degree including our own on an ever increasing basis, but nearly all of them also recognize the fact that humans are born with rights.

[Spexxvet]

Originally Posted by Beestie

Radar, you are doing a fine job in this thread handling some pretty mystifying questions and addressing some baffling misconceptions.

I agree. While I don't necessarily agree with everything you've said, you've presented rational points of view without any value judgements or UG/merc-type slur...

Originally Posted by Radar

There are too many to list. Among them are chewing bubblegum, riding a pogo stick, and posting ridiculous claims that we aren't born with rights on websites.

never mind...
Now why did you have to go there? Like I said, I don't agree with you, but didn't say anything was ridiculous.

Originally Posted by Radar

The list is much shorter to say what are rights are not than what they are. Our rights aren't to be defined or limited by governments.

In short, we have the right to do ANYTHING we want as long as our actions don't physically harm or endanger the person, property, or rights of non-consenting others. In other words, the only limitations on our rights are the equal rights of others.

I don't know what country you are from, but here in America, the fact that we have human rights is axiomatic. It's a given. It is recognized not only in America, but throughout the vast majority of the world.

All governments violate human rights to some degree including our own on an ever increasing basis, but nearly all of them also recognize the fact that humans are born with rights.

I'm from The USA. Born and bred. Some of us believe in human rights - plenty of Americans don't.

I don't think rights "exist" as though they would be there even if no humans existed - they are not stand-alone. They are societal conventions, agreed upon by civilizations. The deer that wakes up doesn't think about what it is allowed to do any more than the wolf does. But by your definition, the wolf infringes on the rights of the deer when it eats the deer. If these rights were "pre-existing", they would supercede "might makes right" wouldn't they?

Where do laws come into your philosophy? If someone tries to steal your car, you feel entitled to kill the person. What about due process? The legal system? Is each person their own judge, jury, and executioner, interpreting their own set of "unwritten laws"? This would make for an anxiety-filled society, where no one knows exactly how to behave, because one person's interpretation of "unwritten laws" will be different than another person's, and breaking those "unwritten laws" could get you killed.

[Radar]

Originally Posted by Spexxvet

I agree. While I don't necessarily agree with everything you've said, you've presented rational points of view without any value judgements or UG/merc-type slur...



never mind...
Now why did you have to go there? Like I said, I don't agree with you, but didn't say anything was ridiculous.



I'm from The USA. Born and bred. Some of us believe in human rights - plenty of Americans don't.

I don't think rights "exist" as though they would be there even if no humans existed - they are not stand-alone. They are societal conventions, agreed upon by civilizations. The deer that wakes up doesn't think about what it is allowed to do any more than the wolf does. But by your definition, the wolf infringes on the rights of the deer when it eats the deer. If these rights were "pre-existing", they would supercede "might makes right" wouldn't they?

Where do laws come into your philosophy? If someone tries to steal your car, you feel entitled to kill the person. What about due process? The legal system? Is each person their own judge, jury, and executioner, interpreting their own set of "unwritten laws"? This would make for an anxiety-filled society, where no one knows exactly how to behave, because one person's interpretation of "unwritten laws" will be different than another person's, and breaking those "unwritten laws" could get you killed.

Actually no. There are no people in America that don't believe in rights, and that includes you. If I tried to kill you, you'd say that you have the right to live. Without rights, you would have no right to complain if I did try to kill you anymore than you would complain about another natural occurance like the rain.

You complain about an "anxiety-filled society" without written laws, but the truth is without rights we'd have no laws and I could enslave you, rape you, rob you, and murder you without fear of retaliation because you have no right to your life, your person, or your possessions. Most would have less anxiety if they knew the only law was that no person could violate the person, property, or rights of others than to live in the "society" where rights aren't recognized that you've described.

Society has no rights. Only individuals do, and they got these rights the moment they were born. Rights don't come from societal conventions or agreements. Rights can't be bought, sold, traded, taken, or given away.

[Spexxvet]

Originally Posted by Radar

Actually no. There are no people in America that don't believe in rights, and that includes you. If I tried to kill you, you'd say that you have the right to live.

Actually, yes. If you tried to kill me, your actions say that you don't believe in those rights. You would be the one who doesn't believe.

Originally Posted by Radar

Without rights, you would have no right to complain if I did try to kill you anymore than you would complain about another natural occurance like the rain.

I'm not saying there are no rights, I'm saying rights are rules that a society agrees to.

Originally Posted by Radar

You complain about an "anxiety-filled society" without written laws, but the truth is without rights we'd have no laws and I could enslave you, rape you, rob you, and murder you without fear of retaliation because you have no right to your life, your person, or your possessions.

Wait, didn't you say that laws only limit rights? Now you're saying rights are the basis of laws? You're confusing me. Do laws protect my rights, or limit my rights?

Uncertainty causes anxiety. Without precisely understood rules, people will be uncertain, and therefore anxious.

Originally Posted by Radar

Most would have less anxiety if they knew the only law was that no person could violate the person, property, or rights of others than to live in the "society" where rights aren't recognized that you've described.

But what do you mean by "violate"? That's where trouble begins. I might feel that my rights are being violated if you yell obscenities at me from your yard - if my "stuff" is an extesion of my "person", then my reputation, self-esteem, and pride are an even closer extension of my person. Can I kill someone for yelling, since my interpretation is that they are "stealing" my pride?

Originally Posted by Radar

... to live in the "society" where rights aren't recognized that you've described.

I didn't say rights aren't recognized.

Originally Posted by Radar

Society has no rights. Only individuals do, and they got these rights the moment they were born. Rights don't come from societal conventions or agreements. Rights can't be bought, sold, traded, taken, or given away.

I disagree. What you're describing sounds like Original Sin to me. Some kind of mystical aura that surrounds us. It's not. We're born with a biological imperitive for survival of our species. We would kill, rape, steal, do whatever it takes to ensure the continuation of our species, if left to ourselves. It's only through interaction with other civilized people that we form conventions that serve to improve the chances of species survival better than we could individually. These convention are rights, morals, mores, laws, courtesies, - whatever you want to call them.

[Radar]

I've broken it down to a level even a child can understand, but in your case, I'll break it down further. You own yourself. Because you own your mind, you have the right to think freely. Because you own your voice, you have the right to express yourself freely. Because you own your labor, you also own the fruits of your labor. You own yourself and no other person or group of people calling themselves "government" or "society" has any claim to you or your labor. Nor do they have any legitimate authority to prevent you from doing anything you want as long as your actions do not PHYSICALLY harm, endanger, or violate the person, property, or rights of non-consenting others. A violation of a right would be preventing another person from exercising their rights.

Our rights do not include going through life without being offended or getting your feelings hurt. Nobody can steal your pride. Nobody else controls your pride or self-esteem but yourself.

I haven't described an "aura" or mysticism. I've described the undeniable, factual, and palpable human rights that we are born with and which have nothing to do whatsoever with societal rules or conventions.

You are free to join the ranks of the most heinous sociopaths of history by trying to deny the reality that human rights exist, but these claims merit the same consideration as denying existence of gravity.

We had rights before we had "society".

[Shawnee123]

Originally Posted by Radar

I've broken it down to a level even a child can understand, but in your case, I'll break it down further.

Nice. If everyone had your negotiation skills, I'd say 'guns for everyone!'

Originally Posted by RADAR

We had rights before we had "society".

Society in your definition. The first two people who looked at each other had a society of sorts. From that society rose the knowledge "hey if I try to kill and eat him he might kill and eat me. Perhaps we should learn to work together and not go there."

[Spexxvet]

Originally Posted by Radar

I've broken it down to a level even a child can understand, but in your case, I'll break it down further.....

I have been nothing but respectful to you in this thread. I understand what you've said, I just think you're WRONG. I don't think you're stupid, just WRONG. Oh, you're an asshole, too.