Do You Own a Gun?

[Radar]

Originally Posted by piercehawkeye45

You can go to into deep space where gravity is at a minimum and attempt to give birth but you can never give birth to someone without human’s rights. One is a physical concept because you can take gravity away and one is a abstract philosophical concept because you can not physically take it away.

Rights are as real, tangible, physical, and undeniable as gravity. You can go in the deepest recesses of space and gravity still exists, though its strength is diminished. Your rights exist even within the most fascist and brutal nations, they are being violated and you are prevented from exercising them, but they still exist. You can not physically take away gravity, and you can not physically take away rights.

Originally Posted by piercehawkeye45

I said it "seems to be disproven". If all humans die tomorrow, everything the world tells us is that it will move on with or without us.

That is an opinion. I'm talking about facts. Rights exist as a matter of fact, not opinion.

Originally Posted by piercehawkeye45

I do not have a right to be offended? If you are singing a tune that displeases me, that takes away my ability to be happy. You do have a right to express yourself and I have a right to be happy, when these two conflict we have to come up with a compromise.

You have the right to PURSUE happiness. You are not guaranteed happiness. If you dislike the tune I'm singing, you are free to go somewhere that makes you happier, or to wear earplugs. My singing has nothing to do with your ability to pursue happiness.

Originally Posted by piercehawkeye45

There was never a first human because humans are constantly evolving. There is never an exact point where a child becomes an adult. We place an age on it but the difference between the two is no different then any instant when someone is a child or an adult.

There was a first human and there will be a last human too. The age at which someone becomes an adult is fluid. I know plenty of 60 year olds who are not adults, and 15 year olds who are.

Originally Posted by piercehawkeye45

I thought they came when the first human was born?

No, human rights didn't appear when the first human was born. They have existed for all time and the first human was imbued with them at birth.

Originally Posted by piercehawkeye45

How do we know what natural rights are? There is nothing that says what natural rights are. They are all made by individuals and there view of the world around them.

The beauty of natural rights is they don't have to be enumerated or codified. We have the right to do ANYTHING as long as our actions do not prevent another person from exercising their rights, and do not physically harm or endanger that person or their property.

Originally Posted by piercehawkeye45

You have to compromise your rights when you live with other people because they will conflict.

I don't argue this. I've always maintained that one persons rights end where another's begin. But you seem to not only have a hard time comprehending the meaning of rights, but you also have a hard time distinguishing them from privileges or desires. My right to sing a song you don't like supersedes your desire not to hear it. The most minor of my rights is more important than your most fervent desire.

Originally Posted by piercehawkeye45

If you have something that can not be taken away from you does it really exist or is it just an illusion?

If you love someone, does it exist? Can someone take from you the love you have for your mother? Is the love you have for your mother merely an illusion?

Originally Posted by piercehawkeye45

(Just for the record, I should have said you have to compromise your rights, or illusion of rights, when you live in a society. You technically still have them, but you are not allowed to use them.)

There is no illusion of rights. There are rights and there are privileges and they are complete opposites. When you live in a "society" you don't have to give up your rights or even compromise them anymore than just respecting the equal rights of others. Most of the time there are those in a society who want to impose their desire onto others and prevent them from exercising their rights through force, but they still have the rights.

[Happy Monkey]

Originally Posted by Radar

There was a first human and there will be a last human too.

Are you talking about Adam, or something more akin to Lucy?

Because in the latter case, no matter how you define "human", the first one would in all likelihood be more similar to its "nonhuman" parents than to you. Do natural rights apply to those parents?

[Radar]

Originally Posted by Happy Monkey

Are you talking about Adam, or something more akin to Lucy?

Because in the latter case, no matter how you define "human", the first one would in all likelihood be more similar to its "nonhuman" parents than to you. Do natural rights apply to those parents?

I am not a Christian and don't believe in any bible stories. I was talking about whatever person was the first person. The first person to evolve from apes to be an actual person as we are now, and not a half-ape/half-man hybrid.

[Happy Monkey]

Originally Posted by Radar

I am not a Christian and don't believe in any bible stories. I was talking about whatever person was the first person. The first person to evolve from apes to be an actual person as we are now, and not a half-ape/half-man hybrid.

No such thing. No definition of "human" is anywhere near specific enough to designate a "first" human. If you somehow do arbitrarily pick the "first" human, they will have been much more similar to their parents than to you. Do the natural rights apply to the child, but not the parents?

[Radar]

Originally Posted by Happy Monkey

No such thing. No definition of "human" is anywhere near specific enough to designate a "first" human. If you somehow do arbitrarily pick the "first" human, they will have been much more similar to their parents than to you. Do the natural rights apply to the child, but not the parents?

All evolved species have evolved due to mutations. At some point a mutation occurred that gave us the very first human being. The non-humans who gave birth to this human would not have human rights, but their offspring would.

What does this really have to do with anything?

[Happy Monkey]

Originally Posted by Radar

All evolved species have evolved due to mutations. At some point a mutation occurred that gave us the very first human being. The non-humans who gave birth to this human would not have human rights, but their offspring would.

No such thing. There is no definition of human that could separate parents from children. Just like if you arbitrarily pick a point on the spectrum to be the "first red", it's going to be pretty orange.

The point of this is that rights can't be a physical reality if they only apply to an essentially arbitrarily chosen genome.

[piercehawkeye45]

Originally Posted by Radar

Rights are as real, tangible, physical, and undeniable as gravity. You can go in the deepest recesses of space and gravity still exists, though its strength is diminished. Your rights exist even within the most fascist and brutal nations, they are being violated and you are prevented from exercising them, but they still exist. You can not physically take away gravity, and you can not physically take away rights.

It would be impossible in this universe but you can take away gravity. Gravity is a physical acceleration, it has physical properties, and you can take it away. You will never be able to reach absolute zero in this universe but it is possible hypothetically. You can not hypothetically have someone born without natural rights. If you are born into a fascist nation, your rights are taken away from you when you are born; you were never born without them.

That is an opinion. I'm talking about facts.

This is pointless. There is no way to prove or disprove this.

Rights exist as a matter of fact, not opinion.

Back that up. I am interested in seeing how it is a fact.

Rights existing is an opinion because they are not physical. There is no way to scientifically find natural rights just as there is no way to scientifically find a soul.

There was a first human and there will be a last human too. The age at which someone becomes an adult is fluid. I know plenty of 60 year olds who are not adults, and 15 year olds who are.

I am seriously not trying to call you out on this but that is not how evolution works. There are two kinds of evolution: microevolution, a change in of an allele in a population, and macroevolution, the separation of two species. One generation will never experience macroevolution or microevolution but only a single mutation. There was never a first human just as there is never a time when someone becomes an adult. It is a long slow gradual process where you can never tell when a species does evolve.

No, human rights didn't appear when the first human was born. They have existed for all time and the first human was imbued with them at birth.

Do you believe in intelligent design. Evolution is random so the chances of life actually evolving into humans are one in a near infinite number. We just got that one time where we did evolve into humans

The beauty of natural rights is they don't have to be enumerated or codified. We have the right to do ANYTHING as long as our actions do not prevent another person from exercising their rights, and do not physically harm or endanger that person or their property.

I really don't believe the world is that simple. Here is a real life situation with my roommate and my hallway. He wants to go to bed at 9:00 at night. The rest of the hallway wants to have fun and be loud all night. There is a conflict of interests. It is my roommate's right to get sleep but it is my hallway's right to have fun and be loud. To be able to live peacefully together, these two groups will have to compromise. My roommate will have to put up with the noise until 11:00 and then my hallway will have to be quiet. Both groups have to give up their rights to function within a community. If my roommate didn't live in a community, he would be able to sleep whenever he wants without distractions. If my hallway didn't live in a community, they would be able to be as loud as they want for as long as they want.

I don't argue this. I've always maintained that one persons rights end where another's begin.

So you agree that people have to compromise when they live in a community?

But you seem to not only have a hard time comprehending the meaning of rights, but you also have a hard time distinguishing them from privileges or desires. My right to sing a song you don't like supersedes your desire not to hear it. The most minor of my rights is more important than your most fervent desire.

So where is this list of rights, privileges, and desires?

If you love someone, does it exist? Can someone take from you the love you have for your mother? Is the love you have for your mother merely an illusion?

Love is caused by chemicals in the brain. If you take away the chemicals you take away the love.

There is no illusion of rights. There are rights and there are privileges and they are complete opposites. When you live in a "society" you don't have to give up your rights or even compromise them anymore than just respecting the equal rights of others. Most of the time there are those in a society who want to impose their desire onto others and prevent them from exercising their rights through force, but they still have the rights.

I think we agree but just are using different words.

If I live in a society that has a social norm that says you can not drink and drive.

I can physically drink and drive even when I live in this society. We both agree on this.

I am saying that once we have broken that norm, we have distanced ourselves from that society which will bring consequences on us that will usually inflict on our rights (going to jail, being fined, ostracized by the rest of the society).