Proclaiming Liberalism, and What It Now Means - Page 2

TheMercenary · 06-07-2007, 09:40 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rkzenrage

Neo-cons lie about wanting smaller, less intrusive government and lower taxes.

Is that an emotional feeling you have on that issue or do you actually have a citation to support that statement? Just curious.

Quote:

They want a police state, it is all they have tried to do, every time they get a bit of power.

Is that an emotional feeling you have on that issue or do you actually have a citation to support that statement?

piercehawkeye45 · 06-07-2007, 09:41 AM

Patriot Act

Do I have to say anything else? They want peace through control.

Flint · 06-07-2007, 09:41 AM

The proof is in the pudding?

TheMercenary · 06-07-2007, 09:52 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by piercehawkeye45

Patriot Act

Do I have to say anything else? They want peace through control.

How has your life personally changed and how have they personally controlled you through enactment of the Patriot Act since it was inacted?

Flint · 06-07-2007, 09:52 AM

It's called the Patriot Act... Patriot = GOOD.

[/thread]

piercehawkeye45 · 06-07-2007, 10:05 AM

It doesn't matter, it was an act of control.

TheMercenary · 06-07-2007, 10:18 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by piercehawkeye45

It doesn't matter, it was an act of control.

We have many acts of control in society. Many, to numerous to count.

Urbane Guerrilla · 06-08-2007, 10:02 AM

Pierce, are you trying to tell me you think communist countries prosper?

Because that's quite the wrong answer. Communist countries are all about organizing the scarcity, not creating the wealth.

Communist countries do not prosper.

Flint · 06-08-2007, 10:08 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Urbane Guerrilla

...organizing the scarcity, not creating the wealth...

I ask this from a deliberate perspective of naiveté, but are there not a finite amount of resources?

Not so much to provoke a lesson in why system A is better/worse than system B, but . . . what is "wealth" anyway?

If there is a finite amount of stuff you can possess, is "wealth" how much more you have than others? Or is it the power to take what you want?

TheMercenary · 06-08-2007, 10:35 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Flint

I ask this from a deliberate perspective of naiveté, but are there not a finite amount of resources?

Not so much to provoke a lesson in why system A is better/worse than system B, but . . . what is "wealth" anyway?

If there is a finite amount of stuff you can possess, is "wealth" how much more you have than others? Or is it the power to take what you want?

If you simply begin with the first question of what is wealth? you will have to address the subsequent answers within the context of different societies. i.e. wealth in the Sudan is different from wealth in the US is different from wealth in Bolivia. I do believe that you are on to something, in some countries wealth is not always material.

Urbane Guerrilla · 06-08-2007, 10:57 AM

On the present planetary scale, Flint, I'm not sure there is a finite limit. Maybe on a solar-system-wide scale there is, but the matter is not yet tested.

Wealth does not yet appear to be a zero-sum game, so far as I can see. The Club of Rome tried modeling the future of Earth's global economy that way, and nothing they predicted panned out. They thought India would be a starved-out desert by now, et cetera. They seemed not to have reckoned with innovation, admittedly an imponderable.

xoxoxoBruce · 06-08-2007, 10:59 AM

Well, it is zero for some.

Urbane Guerrilla · 06-08-2007, 11:03 AM

Bad pun! Bad! :p

(Bend over, bend over, space-eh people-eh!)

Undertoad · 06-08-2007, 11:39 AM

It's not a zero-sum game because the output of workers converts things that are not valuable into things that are valuable.

The major component of the $300 Intel multi-core microprocessor is less than a penny's worth of sand.

Before internal combustion, all the oil in the M.E. was worthless.

Before the industrial revolution, 50% of the population had to do hard farm labor in order to feed the rest.

Capitalism works better because it maximizes human energy into producing wealth in this way. If something is considered valuable, resources are automatically put into generating it, without anyone's plan or program or signature.

Rexmons · 06-08-2007, 12:39 PM

i could never be 100% down with the views of any one group.

06-07-2007, 09:41 AM	#18
Flint Snowflake Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Dystopia Posts: 13,136	The proof is in the pudding? __________________ **************** There's a level of facility that everyone needs to accomplish, and from there it's a matter of deciding for yourself how important ultra-facility is to your expression. ... I found, like Joseph Campbell said, if you just follow whatever gives you a little joy or excitement or awe, then you're on the right track. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . Terry Bozzio**

06-07-2007, 09:52 AM	#20
Flint Snowflake Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Dystopia Posts: 13,136	It's called the Patriot Act... Patriot = GOOD. [/thread] __________________ **************** There's a level of facility that everyone needs to accomplish, and from there it's a matter of deciding for yourself how important ultra-facility is to your expression. ... I found, like Joseph Campbell said, if you just follow whatever gives you a little joy or excitement or awe, then you're on the right track. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . Terry Bozzio**

06-08-2007, 10:02 AM	#23
Urbane Guerrilla Person who doesn't update the user title Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Southern California Posts: 6,674	Pierce, are you trying to tell me you think communist countries prosper? Because that's quite the wrong answer. Communist countries are all about organizing the scarcity, not creating the wealth. Communist countries do not prosper. __________________ Wanna stop school shootings? End Gun-Free Zones, of course.

06-08-2007, 10:57 AM	#26
Urbane Guerrilla Person who doesn't update the user title Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Southern California Posts: 6,674	On the present planetary scale, Flint, I'm not sure there is a finite limit. Maybe on a solar-system-wide scale there is, but the matter is not yet tested. Wealth does not yet appear to be a zero-sum game, so far as I can see. The Club of Rome tried modeling the future of Earth's global economy that way, and nothing they predicted panned out. They thought India would be a starved-out desert by now, et cetera. They seemed not to have reckoned with innovation, admittedly an imponderable. __________________ Wanna stop school shootings? End Gun-Free Zones, of course.

06-08-2007, 10:59 AM	#27
xoxoxoBruce The future is unwritten Join Date: Oct 2002 Posts: 71,105	Well, it is zero for some. __________________ The descent of man ~ Nixon, Friedman, Reagan, Trump.

06-07-2007, 09:41 AM	#17
piercehawkeye45 Franklin Pierce Join Date: Oct 2006 Location: Minnesota Posts: 3,695	Patriot Act Do I have to say anything else? They want peace through control.

06-07-2007, 10:05 AM	#21
piercehawkeye45 Franklin Pierce Join Date: Oct 2006 Location: Minnesota Posts: 3,695	It doesn't matter, it was an act of control.

06-08-2007, 11:03 AM	#28
Urbane Guerrilla Person who doesn't update the user title Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Southern California Posts: 6,674	Bad pun! Bad! :p (Bend over, bend over, space-eh people-eh!) __________________ Wanna stop school shootings? End Gun-Free Zones, of course.

06-08-2007, 11:39 AM	#29
Undertoad Radical Centrist Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: Cottage of Prussia Posts: 31,423	It's not a zero-sum game because the output of workers converts things that are not valuable into things that are valuable. The major component of the $300 Intel multi-core microprocessor is less than a penny's worth of sand. Before internal combustion, all the oil in the M.E. was worthless. Before the industrial revolution, 50% of the population had to do hard farm labor in order to feed the rest. Capitalism works better because it maximizes human energy into producing wealth in this way. If something is considered valuable, resources are automatically put into generating it, without anyone's plan or program or signature.

06-08-2007, 12:39 PM	#30
Rexmons - Kavkaz United - Join Date: May 2007 Posts: 613	i could never be 100% down with the views of any one group. __________________ "Life's a bitch but God forbid the bitch divorce me..."

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