New gun control: Shut down shops

[redstradingpost]

Originally Posted by glatt

I don't care enough to dig for it myself, but I'm going to take anything Red's or its lawyers say with a grain of salt. They are the very definition of a biased party here.

Glatt, so do you think that were just making it up? Here are your stats: The number of dealers from 1994-2005 decreased nearly 80%. The number of revocations of licenses is up nearly 6 times from 2001-06. I welcome you to look it up for yourself, it is pretty disturbing. I wish the ATF would address it but they won't.

I would like to thank many of you for your comments and support, it really means alot!
Thanks,
Ryan Horsley
Red's Trading Post

[glatt]

Originally Posted by redstradingpost

Glatt, so do you think that were just making it up?

It's cool that you came to this thread.

I don't question the overall statistics of overall gun shops closings out there. What I question is your specific case. There are three relatively minor violations listed on your website, and you and your lawyers claim in the media that you are being shut down over just those three minor violations.

Are they the only three, or are you cherrypicking examples from a much larger list that may contain more serious infractions? Can you post the complaint (or whatever the legal document is called) that the government filed against you? Something that might tell their side of the story in this case?

I'm glad you are fighting the fight against the government here if you truly believe that you are in the right. The courts can sort it out. That's what they are for.

[redstradingpost]

Originally Posted by glatt

Are they the only three, or are you cherrypicking examples from a much larger list that may contain more serious infractions? Can you post the complaint (or whatever the legal document is called) that the government filed against you? Something that might tell their side of the story in this case?

Glatt, Actually the 3 violations that they were being referred to were recent violations in the audit before last. The ATF has chosen to audit us several times since, the last audit which was last week produced 2 new violations:A customer not filling out the transfer date (he came in later and filled it in)A firearm that was logged in to our book was missing a digit in our acquisition book

The problem is that each time they come to audit us it generally costs us about $5,000. Here is the article from the last audit:
http://www.magicvalley.com/articles/...ate/114470.txt

Flint, here is the stats that I am referring to. This is also from an a Gun Control group that brags about the decrease in numbers of dealers:
http://www.vpc.org/press/0603dealers.htm

The reason that I am speaking up is not to draw more attention to my case because honestly we have become a bigger target but to make gun owners and the public aware of what is happening.

[glatt]

Originally Posted by redstradingpost

Glatt, Actually the 3 violations that they were being referred to were recent violations in the audit before last. The ATF has chosen to audit us several times since, the last audit which was last week produced 2 new violations:A customer not filling out the transfer date (he came in later and filled it in)A firearm that was logged in to our book was missing a digit in our acquisition book

The problem is that each time they come to audit us it generally costs us about $5,000. Here is the article from the last audit:
http://www.magicvalley.com/articles/...ate/114470.txt

So as I understand it from the article, there were a handful of audits between 1980 and March 1997. As a result of those audits, the agency shut you down, but a judge stayed that action in March, so you can stay open until it works its way through the courts. The ATF is apparently pissed now and is coming back looking for more evidence against you and generally making your lives miserable. The question I have, is what did they find that made them want to shut you down in the first place? It sounds like all the nit-picking examples you list have all come since they tried to shut you down. What did they find before then? Is there a serious infraction you aren't mentioning? Or have they been nit-picking all along?

[Flint]

Originally Posted by redstradingpost

...

The reason that I am speaking up is not to draw more attention to my case because honestly we have become a bigger target but to make gun owners and the public aware of what is happening.

It's the "what is happening" part that I'm not getting. What is happening? All I see here is anecdotal evidence and inuendo. Convince me.

[redstradingpost]

Originally Posted by Flint

It's the "what is happening" part that I'm not getting. What is happening? All I see here is anecdotal evidence and innuendo. Convince me.

This will actually answer both questions, if you are a dealer then they will come in and audit you. It may have been 20 years since you have seen anyone from the ATF. The first audit is the set up for "willful", they will come in and they will find violations. They will give you a warning and then after that they will continue to come in until they find violations (doesn't matter big or small). They have to prove that the violations are "willful" that is the word that Reagan and Congress put in the wording to protect dealers. The ATF has to prove that the violations were committed "willfully", most people assume that "willful" means intentional. However they have taken the stance that if you commit any violations in an audit you will get a warning and if they come back in a later audit then it is "willful", they do not even have to be the same violations.
In our case the 2000 audit was the set up for willful, we had a 2001 audit that produced not violations (however the ATF is now coming back and claiming that they found the missing violations from the 2001 audit), the 2005 audit was the audit that they based their decision to revoke our license besides the fact that we had a 99.6% success rate and the Inspector claiming that we were "one of the best small gun shops" he had inspected.

[Spexxvet]

Whether it's a gun shop, an optical shop, or a restaurant, if there are standards that "an authority" says you have to meet, and you don't, you suffer the consequences. The standards for guns shops are in place to prevent things like the Virginia Tech episode and to prevent criminals from obtaining guns. This is like reading an article about a restaurant being closed where the owner says "the health inspector has it out for me. I wash my hands after defecating 99% of the time, and there's only 3 rat poops per thousand in the food I serve" except that most people don't have a problem with shutting down a restaurant that doesn't meet standards.

[Flint]

...

[Shawnee123]

Thanks, Spexx. That was what I was trying to get at initially. We are subject to very detailed audits, and if we don't meet requirements we have to answer for it. Sure, we have the right to appeal the decision, which Ryan has done. Like you said, there are a multitude of industries that are subject to adhering to the rules of some higher power.

I'm not saying it's not possible that they're picking on this particular shop. It certainly is, but without back stories who knows? It's also possible that the inspectors are doing their job, and missing the crossed t is just one aspect of the things they have to look at. They have to ding you for it; that is their job. You can appeal it, that is your right. It sounds as if you have done so, and successfully. That's good. That's the system we have.

But, saying they pick on you because they're out to get you for the sole reason that they don't like guns and you do...it smacks of playing the gun card. It's similar to the race card. Certainly, bias and prejudice are real, but every incident can't be boiled down to "they are out to get me because..."

[xoxoxoBruce]

Not even close. When they give you a tiny little box for the county and freak when you put down the legal abbreviation, it's bullshit. Or going down a list of questions and answer Y, N or NA and bitch because you didn't write out Yes, No and Not Applicable, is nit picking.

To prevent misuse, they are making sure anyone buying a gun passes the instant background check to try to keep guns away from people that shouldn't have them. For a person to attempt to buy a gun, when they are not allowed, is a federal felony. Yet of the hundreds of thousands of people, that have committed that felony, the feds have procecuted.... ZERO.

If this was about actually trying to prevent crime instead of trying to eliminate as many shops as possible, the feds would be enforcing the thousands of laws on the books, instead of this end run of the Constitution.

[Flint]

...as recently as 15 or 20 years ago, there were 250,000 licensed gun dealers in the United States. ...Today...there are 108,381...

Originally Posted by redstradingpost

... Here are your stats: The number of dealers from 1994-2005 decreased nearly 80%. ...

Those numbers don't match up. Over "15 or 20 years" the number dropped about 57%, but in 11 of those years, the number dropped almost 80%? Did the number actually increase around 20% in the first 4 to 9 years of the "15 to 20 years" and then drop sharply? Can I see a graph?

Originally Posted by redstradingpost

...so do you think that were just making it up?

Making WHAT up? Be specific.