Men Abortion and Choice

[Clodfobble]

Originally Posted by yesman065

Just an aside - Where is that thread Clod? I've been dealing with that issue personally.

Here it is. Ah, good times.

[glatt]

Originally Posted by Clodfobble

Here it is. Ah, good times.

Lady Sidhe sure did know how to start a controversial thread.

I see a lot of problems with this law:
- If a man has the final say in whether or not to abort the baby, as someone else stated above, what is to keep some of them from abusing this law to control a woman or to "punish" her? I won't believe that this would be a small minority of situations. Many people cannot handle responsibility, so they use it to control another person. This happens already in so many other ways.

He only has a say, with my suggestion, if he wants full custody of that child, no other time... and if he could carry the child (which they were looking at for a time) sure, I have no issue with it.
The revenge problem is a possibility, as is the preferential treatment of women by the courts today. But, he has a baby that is his and only his out of it.
I just don't see a male using this as something to harm someone because they end-up with more of the burden and problems than she does in the long run. But, this is a good point.

- Once the child is born, what of him/her? Can you honestly say you believe that all fathers are going to be supportive, loving, whatever for that child? What portion of those children do you suspect will end up in the state cycle, unwanted? Who pays for these services already, and whose taxes will increase as a result of further "strain" on the system? I hate to put it this way, but it is a factor.

He wants the baby.
How is that different than the mother deciding she wants to keep the baby?
There is none, that is the point.
I do not accept the assumption that women are better parents.
The risks of the child being unwanted are the same with the female parent.

- There are ways around this law for pregnant women, too. "I don't remember who I slept with. Here's a list, but he might not be on there."

In-vitro DNA.

- Who needs more laws to control us? If the man is not considered in the decision about the life of a fetus and he has a problem with that, perhaps he should have considered his partner's perspective on that ahead of time and used a condom? Or, perhaps he might have determined his partner's perspective on having children, before he started having sex with her? Same goes for the woman. If she didn't want to get pregnant, perhaps she might have taken precautions? Both parties have responsibility in this, but once a woman gets pregnant, she has full physical responsibility for that child. Only she can eat right, not lift really heavy things, etc. to take care of that child while in the womb. If she chooses to abort the baby, obviously she isn't prepared for the responsibility. The man has no physical obligation to the child, so naturally his perspective is going to be different.

I agree with the first part, but we are talking about once it is too late.
No physical responsibility? It is half of him, physically. That is the point.

- What about situations where the man makes the woman keep the baby and she later decides she wants to be a mother? I have heard of this happening in situations where the intent is to give the baby up for adoption.

That is really OT for this, will but up to the courts to decide. She signed her rights away. I hope that he would retain primary custody as long as he is a good parent.
She wanted to kill the kid... not sure how I feel about that after the fact. But, people change... guess it would depend on the individual case.

[jinx]

The revenge problem is a possibility, as is the preferential treatment of women by the courts today. But, he has a baby that is his and only his out of it.

It is half of him, physically. That is the point.

If it's half him, it's half her, and can't ever be his and only his.
What if he changes his mind? What if decides to tell the kid who mom is for whatever reason? What if he dies?

Originally Posted by jinx

If it's half him, it's half her, and can't ever be his and only his.
What if he changes his mind? What if decides to tell the kid who mom is for whatever reason? What if he dies?

All of that is true of her as well.
I was talking about custody, nothing more. When a woman takes care of a child alone, it is only sole custody and all of those what ifs are still accurate.

[kerosene]

Originally Posted by rkzenrage

He only has a say, with my suggestion, if he wants full custody of that child, no other time... and if he could carry the child (which they were looking at for a time) sure, I have no issue with it.

Sure, if he could carry the child. I am all for it. But since he can't, I ain't biting.

Originally Posted by rkzenrage

The revenge problem is a possibility, as is the preferential treatment of women by the courts today. But, he has a baby that is his and only his out of it.
I just don't see a male using this as something to harm someone because they end-up with more of the burden and problems than she does in the long run. But, this is a good point.

Yes, I will give you that mothers do get preferential treatment in custody cases, most of the time. That should change. Parents should be viewed as equal parties, but not until the child is born. Why? Because it isn't a child until it is born.

Also, it might be easy for a person to say "Oh yes, I am going to raise that child" (fill out the form, drop it off at the courthouse, etc.) but when it comes to raising the kid, what is to stop the guy from hauling the baby down to his nearest dropoff once it is born? Yes, I know, there is nothing stopping mothers from doing it, now, and there is nothing stopping teenagers from throwing their babies in dumpsters. Yes, it is a sad world. Let's try and minimize the damage.

Originally Posted by rkzenrage

He wants the baby.
How is that different than the mother deciding she wants to keep the baby?
There is none, that is the point.
I do not accept the assumption that women are better parents.
The risks of the child being unwanted are the same with the female parent.

No, women aren't necessarily better parents...but in this case, dad isn't able to parent, yet. The woman wants to not take the responsibility of carrying fetus, let alone caring for it after birth. The man may want to care for it after birth, but sadly enough, he isn't carrying it, so he doesn't get to decide. Men don't get to decide not to be able to carry a child, right now. Maybe technology will change that.

Originally Posted by rkzenrage

In-vitro DNA.

If dad isn't on the list, how do they make the comparison?

Originally Posted by rkzenrage

I agree with the first part, but we are talking about once it is too late.
No physical responsibility? It is half of him, physically. That is the point.

Yes, we are talking about once the woman DOES get pregnant by him. No, he has no physical responsibility to the fetus...meaning if he decides to fast for a week, that doesn't affect the fetus. Meaning if he decides to do coke, that doesn't affect the fetus. If he eats well, gets exercise...guess what? It does the fetus no good and no harm. When Mom's blood pressure spikes and she dies or needs a C-section, Dad is unaffected but the fetus is. If we are going to have legal abortion, it should be up to the woman. End of story. Hopefully, she has the decency to involve dad in the decision, but if dad isn't around, or doesn't seem to care, it's up to her.

Originally Posted by rkzenrage

That is really OT for this, will but up to the courts to decide. She signed her rights away. I hope that he would retain primary custody as long as he is a good parent.

If your law were reality, I would hope this would be the case, actually.

Originally Posted by rkzenrage

She wanted to kill the kid... not sure how I feel about that after the fact. But, people change... guess it would depend on the individual case.

I haven't known a lot of women who had abortions, but those I have known, I can promise you, are not cold hearted killers. Those I know chose the option out of desperation and extreme guilt. I know pro-lifers out there balk at that, but I think it needs to be said that it hasn't been an easy decision for any of the women I have known who made that one.

For the record, I could not go through with an abortion. But I am not about to tell another woman she can't. I don't know her circumstances, her heart or her motivations.

[yesman065]

Originally Posted by Clodfobble

Here it is. Ah, good times.

I'd have to defer to the woman having the ultimate decision here - even though, as a man, I would like to have more say, it really isn't mine to have - it is her body.

[side]Clod, That was a very interesting read. I was on the complete opposite end of that situation. It seemed that she was referring to one situation of an asshole and painting every father with the same brush. As it stands today, I the father, have custody of all my kids and the mother is getting married to a guy she has known less than a year. None of the kids want to go to the wedding. I am strongly urging them all to do so.[track]