Ending God's Tax Exempt Status

[elSicomoro]

Bruce, seriously, what's up lately? You seem more testy than usual...this is how you got before you went AWOL earlier this year. Hope you're alright.

[xoxoxoBruce]

Originally Posted by sycamore

Bruce, seriously, what's up lately? You seem more testy than usual...this is how you got before you went AWOL earlier this year. Hope you're alright.

I'm always "testy" when some asshole doesn't read what I say, and tells me what I really mean or think.


The problem with immigrants coming to this country, is one of the major reasons they come... freedom. Even the ones that come legally, once they are here, they virtually disappear from the feds radar. It's a conundrum the feds, haven't been able to resolve.

I don't understand why an immigrant, convicted of a felony, is so hard to deport.... or why someone that overstays their visa for years, can't be found and deported, while paying taxes every year.
There is a bunch of Nigerians in MA that receive a letter from the feds, every year, telling them their student visa expired X years ago and they must leave the country. They don't respond and the feds do nothing.
The illegal 17 year old Mexican that hit my car and ran, with no drivers license or insurance, is still here. He was in jail and the feds couldn't find him?

The Supreme court decided that anyone landed, has full rights and privileges of a citizen. I understand that keeps immigrants from being discriminated against, at least in theory. But, I'd be more comfortable if the feds at least knew where they are, until they become citizens.

[queequeger]

Originally Posted by xoxoxoBruce

I don't understand why an immigrant, convicted of a felony, is so hard to deport.... or why someone that overstays their visa for years, can't be found and deported, while paying taxes every year.
There is a bunch of Nigerians in MA that receive a letter from the feds, every year, telling them their student visa expired X years ago and they must leave the country. They don't respond and the feds do nothing.
The illegal 17 year old Mexican that hit my car and ran, with no drivers license or insurance, is still here. He was in jail and the feds couldn't find him?

These problems could all be solved by deporting every illegal alien and spending more time and money on hunting down the ones we can't find. However, it would be a kinder solution to simply give them citizenship. All the sudden they're no harder or easier to track than you or me.

To me it is very simple - Come here legally or don't come here at all. If you come here illegally then you are a criminal - can't you grasp that basic concept? No? OH thats right - you are the mental midgit.

I speed, I've done illegal drugs, I've sold illegal drugs, I drank underage, etc. Who here hasn't broken laws? I can't imagine it's been very exciting for anyone who's never gone over the speed limit. Why is crossing the border illegally so much more heinous than anything I've done?

I don't buy the concept that this is 'only a legal argument' because what I'm trying to get at is the law is stupid. If the law is stupid, it's stupid to punish people for it. Punishment for it's own sake is likewise a stupid concept.

Regardless, what this all boils down to is that I am entitled to live here because I was born here, and you are NOT entitled to live here because you were born elsewhere. I can't buy it, it's too nasty. So, if you believe entitlement by birth is an OK thing for us to have, then that core belief makes us so different that there's not much common ground to argue from, eh?

And bruce, I'm sorry I pissed you off.

[tw]

Originally Posted by queequeger

However, it would be a kinder solution to simply give them citizenship. All the sudden they're no harder or easier to track than you or me.

And so you have defined why we have a problem. For example, EE Times of 27 Aug 2007 describes even a reverse brain drain because our draconian laws are based in the mindset you see in Yesman065's post; a solution that ignores the problem.

By the end of fiscal year 2006, half a million foreign nationals living in the States were waiting in line of employment-based green cards ... If spouses and offspring are included in the tally, the number exceeds 1 million. ...
The number of available green cards in the three categories totals approximately 120,000. "If there are over a million persons in line for 120,000 visas a year, then we have already mortgaged almost nine year's worth of employment visas" ...

The series then continues to explain how desperate America is for these illegal workers in high tech jobs.

Research released Wednesday shows that foreign nationals were listed as inventors or co-inventors in 25.6 percent of patent applications in the US ... The US government is among those that benefit from foreign nationals' brainpower. Some 41 percent of its patent applications list foreign nationals as inventors or co-inventors.

The report uses examples to demonstrate people who want to start businesses in America and cannot for 4 or up to 13 years. So they leave.

US companies bring in many highly skilled foreigners on temporary visas and train them in US business practices. ... Those workers are then forced to leave, and "they become our competitors. That is how stupid as it gets"

... a senior strategic projects manager who has an engineer background and is working for a Fortune 100 company has been waiting 13 years for his green card, Arumbakkam said.
That manager, also Indian, applied for permanent residency in Canada at the same time he applied for it in the States. After 18 months, Canada offered it to him and his family. His wife and children moved to Vancouver BC

Notice how some blindly see unenforced laws as the problem. They don't even see why the laws are not enforceable. They just know enforcement - classic 'big dic' thinking - will solve everything.

We need 1.8 million immigrants to harvest the crops. We offer only 29,000 visas. So we should enforce laws upon those other 1,710,000 workers only because only those laws are righteous? We even ignore the purpose of those laws? No wonder Martin Luther King was so evil. Meanwhile look at the numbers even for workers that America most desperately needs. Millions are needed. Only 0.12 million visas are available.

America even created 2 million Iraqi refugees. We only permitted a few hundred to come to America. The laws are never wrong. It must be all those evil Iraqis. Laws do not create problems? Well, yes. Problem are the foolish who support those laws; who ignore the problem - those laws.

They are here illegally because we need them, because they need the work, and because so many want to enforce laws that are not enforceable. Since we are into enforcing stupid laws, then bring back prohibition. Notice all the drunk drivers who would not longer exist if we just enforce that law also.

[xoxoxoBruce]

Originally Posted by tw

They are here illegally because we need them, because they need the work, and because so many want to enforce laws that are not enforceable. Since we are into enforcing stupid laws, then bring back prohibition. Notice all the drunk drivers who would not longer exist if we just enforce that law also.

If the law is stupid, change it, don't ignore it.

[dar512]

Looks like this thread has drifted.

[9th Engineer]

The thing is, you can argue day and night, but in the end legality will always win when the situation must be resolved. Actually, so much of our law is based on common law (precedents), that not enforcing a law in one scenario has an enormous impact on its ability to be enforced in other areas. Law is logic, if I can make the argument and connect the dots, I win. If I have a very wealthy client who wants to skirt the law and there is a precedent of non-enforcement that I can tie to him in any way, then your original law may as well not even be there. Think carefully.

[lumberjim]

Originally Posted by dar512

Looks like this thread has drifted.

DOESN'T THAT LOOK APPEALING RIGHT NOW!!?!?!?

[piercehawkeye45]

Originally Posted by xoxoxoBruce

If the law is stupid, change it, don't ignore it.

Some laws make sense in some situations and don't in others.

For example, there is a difference between an 18 year old drinking responsibly and an 18 year old passed out in bathtub after waking up all of his or her neighbors at 3 in the morning, vandalizing their homes, and peeing on their lawn. Just like there is a difference between going 20 over on a country road and going 20 over on a city road. There will be times when the same law will make sense and a time when it doesn't and that is why we have courts, kinda.

Some laws are very hard to change like legalizing drug as well and are easier just to ignore it.

Originally Posted by piercehawkeye45

Some laws make sense in some situations and don't in others.

For example, there is a difference between an 18 year old drinking responsibly and an 18 year old passed out in bathtub after waking up all of his or her neighbors at 3 in the morning, vandalizing their homes, and peeing on their lawn. Just like there is a difference between going 20 over on a country road and going 20 over on a city road. There will be times when the same law will make sense and a time when it doesn't and that is why we have courts, kinda.

Some laws are very hard to change like legalizing drug as well and are easier just to ignore it.

In that case, their age is not the issue.

[tw]

Originally Posted by piercehawkeye45

Some laws make sense in some situations and don't in others.

This still does not explain why sanctuary inside a tax free church is not good protection from enforcement of stupid laws. Even the alter boys nip at the sacrifical wine and don't get prosecuted.

[xoxoxoBruce]

Originally Posted by queequeger

These problems could all be solved by deporting every illegal alien and spending more time and money on hunting down the ones we can't find. However, it would be a kinder solution to simply give them citizenship. All the sudden they're no harder or easier to track than you or me.

Is that fair to the people that play by the rules? Does that teach them to respect the laws or just encourage them to flaunt more laws that are inconvenient for them? Doesn't that just encourage more to come illegally demanding the same treatment? I know the answer, yes it does, but that's what you want. Well I don't, because I'm not leaving the country.

I speed, I've done illegal drugs, I've sold illegal drugs, I drank underage, etc. Who here hasn't broken laws? I can't imagine it's been very exciting for anyone who's never gone over the speed limit. Why is crossing the border illegally so much more heinous than anything I've done?

I can see why you don't expect them to respect the law, you don't.

I don't buy the concept that this is 'only a legal argument' because what I'm trying to get at is the law is stupid. If the law is stupid, it's stupid to punish people for it. Punishment for it's own sake is likewise a stupid concept.

The law is not stupid. It's a good law, better than most countries have. If the quotas are outdated, then update them to reflect the times, don't just ignore the protections the law provides.

Regardless, what this all boils down to is that I am entitled to live here because I was born here, and you are NOT entitled to live here because you were born elsewhere. I can't buy it, it's too nasty. So, if you believe entitlement by birth is an OK thing for us to have, then that core belief makes us so different that there's not much common ground to argue from, eh?

Nasty? More people are immigrating into the US than anywhere else in the world and we're nasty? Give me a break.

And bruce, I'm sorry I pissed you off.

Why? What difference does it make to you or me? I holler, don't brood.

[queequeger]

Originally Posted by xoxoxoBruce

Nasty? More people are immigrating into the US than anywhere else in the world and we're nasty?

So you don't have any problem with giving two people different rights based on where they were born? You don't think there's something twisted about that? People come here because we're obscenely rich, and they want to be rich, too. I don't think that means we are morally superior at all. That's where my stance on the whole issue is coming from, and why I'd still be for inclusive immigration laws even if it were 'bad for the economy,' because frankly it reeks of royalty to claim a right to citizenship based solely on birth.

Originally Posted by xoxoxoBruce

Why? What difference does it make to you or me? I holler, don't brood.

Well it does make a difference to you if you're actually pissed, right? I'm not saying I've spent the last two days pacing and worrying about a person I just met (not even in 'real life') being angry, but I would be happier if you weren't pissed off. Also, if you didn't call me Polyanna. My name is already a slightly misspelled girls name as it is.

[9th Engineer]

Most Americans are not extremely rich, they make enough to live comfortably but not in the lap of luxury. It's our stability and open class system (ability to climb the social and economic ladders) that draws people here I think. Isn't the most common thing to hear from illegal aliens "I wanted to make a better life for myself and my family"? Not, "I want in on all those piles of cash!".
Birth does a hell of alot to determine who we are, we are born into our culture. Some people are born to very wealthy parents and often enjoy lives of greater privilege then the rest of us. How far are you willing to go to put an end to that? And are you willing to damage and destroy the efforts of millions of people here who have done absolutely nothing wrong in order to enforce your own view of global equality? I'm willing to help people, but I also retain the right to choose how I do it, and what I'm willing to sacrifice in the process. If you want to override the will of the citizenry in order to impose your own morality, I suggest you find a different country to target. That's not the way things work here.

[queequeger]

Originally Posted by 9th Engineer

Most Americans are not extremely rich, they make enough to live comfortably but not in the lap of luxury.

Rich is relative my friend. Tell your average Iraqi, Sudani, Chadian, Pakistani, Yugoslavian that I am not rich. By American standards I'm middle class at best. I make multitudes more than the average middle class person in those countries. I have a television, an X-Box, a car, a truck, a motorcycle, I can go out a few times a month for dinner and drinks, My clothes are all new (relatively!:p). I never ever ever have to worry about what I'm going to eat, and all but the tiniest fraction of Americans are in my boat.

Originally Posted by 9th Engineer

Some people are born to very wealthy parents and often enjoy lives of greater privilege then the rest of us. How far are you willing to go to put an end to that?

I know not everyone is interested in it, not everyone finds as big an issue with this kind of right by birth. Me? I'm willing to go pretty far. As I've already stated I'd pay upwards of 50-60 percent of my income in taxes if everyone got healthcare, free education... everything available in a capitalist socialism setting. I can not abide that some people who work HARDER than me get less, just because I had parents who could pay my first year of classes and buy books later. I've never truly been on my own before, I've always had parents who I could fall back on if times get hard. If your parents live around the poverty level, what the hell are they going to do?? Nothing, you run out of money, drop out of college, and get a job at Denny's.

Originally Posted by 9th Engineer

If you want to override the will of the citizenry in order to impose your own morality, I suggest you find a different country to target. That's not the way things work here.

What the bloody hell are you talking about!? I'm talking about what I think is the correct way to go about things. I never said I was going to try some military coup so I can enforce my hippie-commie-pinko views on the citizens of the US, or even that someone should. If I believed that, I'd most certainly be in a different line of work. I'm explaining WHY it is that I would vote for an immigration system like this, and WHY it is that we SHOULD. If everyone who posted their views on this or any forum stood accused of 'trying to impose their own morality'... well, hell. I guess we'd all be a bunch of enemies to the state.