New study/experiment. Uber conservatives now get a diagnosis?

[DanaC]

By pure happenstance one person who did not view this man as some sort of disturbing social leper, came into his proximity. Had Cicer not done so, someone else might have helped...or not. Again, to me these things are too big, too societal in nature to be left to the vagaries of human kindness. That one guy isn't just one guy. He is one visible example of a person in trouble or in need. There are many, almost countless others in most wealthy cities of the industrial West.

[Flint]

The Buddhist parable about gently licking maggots from the wounded dog comes to mind. The "wounded dog" is transformed into the deity that the person desired, for many years, to see. The act of compassion is the greater part of any religion, or system of beliefs. It is the highest form.

[DanaC]

The act of compassion is the greater part of any religion, or system of beliefs. It is the highest form.

I wholly agree.

[TheMercenary]

Originally Posted by DanaC

By pure happenstance one person who did not view this man as some sort of disturbing social leper, came into his proximity. Had Cicer not done so, someone else might have helped...or not. Again, to me these things are too big, too societal in nature to be left to the vagaries of human kindness. That one guy isn't just one guy. He is one visible example of a person in trouble or in need. There are many, almost countless others in most wealthy cities of the industrial West.

And for that one act of kindness should be surely praised and emulated. But the problem is "Then what?". Did they take the poor homeless man home with them? Did they empty their bank account and make is life truely better? Did they buy them dinner? What about dinner the next day? Did they take them to the doctor to see if they needed medication? Did they buy them the needed medication? Are they going to supply the needed medication for ever since the poor guy obviouly can't work? Did they take them home or get them some place where they could shower? And what about all the other homeless friends he has? What about them? Where does it end?

You can't have rescue fantasies about all the bad in the world. Just do little bits here and there and try to make a difference. Are you willing to sacrifice the well being of you and your family to help every single person in the world that needs help?

[DanaC]

My answer to that Merc is that it's a damn sight less oppressive if everyone contributes a manageable portion of their wealth/income in order that no one person has to carry such a burden.

[Undertoad]

Monday morning man probably needed help 10 or 20 years ago. Whether he needed help that day, nobody knows, because nobody asked him. It is rude for us to assume that he needed help when he didn't ask for it and maybe he only wanted to have a seat for a while. It's even rude to assume he wanted someone to sit next to him.

Now let's try this one!

Compassion is the highest form. Of the following situations, which contains the most compassion?

- I sense you are in need and I help you with what it is you need. It may be money, or it may be education, or a room for a month, or a flight outta town, or simply advice, or merely a warm coat, or merely a friendly smile acknowledging your presence and sitting down in your proximity.

OR

- Anonymous government employees watch over the removal of a fifth of my paycheck. They take what they need, then send you a check for the amount you qualify for. We never meet, but I assume that because a huge chunk of my earnings was taken from me for your assistance, you are surely being helped.

[DanaC]

Given that most people feel somehow smaller for having needed help (not wanting to be a 'charity case' not wanting to use 'the begging bowl') I would actually consider the second more compassionate. It much easier for the person receiving help if they are merely accessing a fund to which they have rights as a citizen who will at various times pay varying amounts of tax and national insurance.

To be poor and asked if you need help can be a humiliating and upsetting experience. Asking for help even more so.

As we live in a world where many people do have to rely on personal compassion then personal charity is a compassionate act. But to me it is more compassionate to agree as a society to set up a fund for those in need without them having to accept the charity of their fellows.

[TheMercenary]

Originally Posted by DanaC

a manageable portion of their wealth/income.

Great, define that.

[DanaC]

Again that would be something for consultation and political campaigning. The politicians and parties put forward what they consider the most workable compromise and through the democratic process the country would come to its decision on what level is considered manageable and how that would be organised.

Your country has come to its current accepted levels of tax and protection by this process, as has mine. In my own country I would argue for greater protections and less social stigma for those who have need of it.

[Happy Monkey]

Originally Posted by Undertoad

Compassion is the highest form. Of the following situations, which contains the most compassion?

- I sense you are in need and I help you with what it is you need. It may be money, or it may be education, or a room for a month, or a flight outta town, or simply advice, or merely a warm coat, or merely a friendly smile acknowledging your presence and sitting down in your proximity.

OR

- Anonymous government employees watch over the removal of a fifth of my paycheck. They take what they need, then send you a check for the amount you qualify for. We never meet, but I assume that because a huge chunk of my earnings was taken from me for your assistance, you are surely being helped.

I'd say the second one, because it happens for just about anybody who needs it, and lots of people can go ahead and do the first one as well, whereas people who advocate the primacy of the first one are more likely to be advocating the removal of the second.

[TheMercenary]

Originally Posted by DanaC

As we live in a world where many people do have to rely on personal compassion then personal charity is a compassionate act. But to me it is more compassionate to agree as a society to set up a fund for those in need without them having to accept the charity of their fellows.

We also live in a world where people will do anything to get by on nothing. A world where many people don't want to help themselves and many who just don't want help. We could start by reforming our Mental Health system and start pumping money back into it in a a big way. That would most likely take a whole bunch of homeless people off the street. But running around throwing money at these problems via "Government" controlled and run organizations is not the answer.

[DanaC]

We also live in a world where people will do anything to get by on nothing.

Yeah.....ya know though I think most people actually do want to work (bear with me)..

When society sends large numbers of people a message that they are worthless and allows the market to create large pockets of unemployment coupled with low social mobility, that's a recipe for creating a subculture that feels it is *thinks how to phrase this* at war, or under attack from the wider culture. If that sub culture continues for long enough and a new generation is born to that sub culture, then you have a recipe for a sub culture that sees itself as separate and distinct from the wider community. That's when people begin to see the protections that are still left as something to take without putting back.

The answer is to exert enough controls over your economy so as to not produce ghettos of poverty and social exclusion. In the event that a country has already produced such ghettos you are faced with (the way I see it) two distinct paths of action. You can either a) become ever more strict in how that help is regulated and debarr as many people as you can, reducing the levels of protection as a way of making it even more unappealing in order to drive people to find work; thereby increasing the sense of social exclusion and 'attack'. Or, b) you increase social protections whilst simultaneously trying to apply pressure and incentives to business to employ at home rather than sending jobs to Mexico and the Far East; alongside that you try to actively engage those communities in dialogue and make the justice system less brutal in the way it deals wth non-violent criminals (thereby removing some of the sense of being literally under attack by the economically active classes).

The problem with b) is that this solution would require more than a generation to reintegrate the sub-culture into the mainstream culture. The problem with a) is that it further alienates the two cultures from each other, creating an ever wider gulf and a siege mentality within the sub-culture; and resulting in the phenomenon of wealthy, gated communities existing within a short drive from housing complexes where simply walking down the street is a dangerous thing to do.

I believe that b) has the potential to reintegrate the cultures of the middle class and the cultures of the long-term, unemployed over a couple of generations resulting in a culture where, as in the mainstream, people want to be a part of the employed world.

[Cicero]

Originally Posted by Undertoad

Monday morning man probably needed help 10 or 20 years ago. Whether he needed help that day, nobody knows, because nobody asked him. It is rude for us to assume that he needed help when he didn't ask for it and maybe he only wanted to have a seat for a while. It's even rude to assume he wanted someone to sit next to him.

Now let's try this one!

Yea- how presumptuous of me!!! Ha!!!! Haa!!! I am such a bitch. He smelled so bad- like death-but i just come along and assume that everyone that is leaning at a right angle in their chair with a painful expression on their face has something wrong with them. Might need help.
Presumptuous bitch.......I also presumed that he had just been helped by the hospital which is why he had the shoes on and might have needed some money.....and gotten some fucking bad and painful news on top of it.

Well he didn't turn it down when I gave him money, and hell, if someone approached me and gave me money....neither would I. I wasn't the Queen of Mercy either....I'm no saint....I just handed him money no questions asked.....pretty lazy of me really....Since when do I have to fucking ask to give people money?!? I didn't sit next to him either- I was the only one that would sit in his general vicinity. Because that is where I always sit. I just didn't go out of my way to avoid him or the situation either. By your tale you would have me plopping on his lap- so you could make some ridiculous point about helping people unasked.

Bitches.

You act like everyone that needs help asks for it! Who is presumptuous now? I don't care if my stomach fell out of my body with hunger.....I would never ask for anything and neither do a lot of people........People need to ask for help? No letting people keep any dignity- make them beg.

Dude here's some cash- see ya! I wish people would do that to me....

Whatever UT.

Go try that on someone that didn't just crawl from underneath a rock. Or someone that hides in a damned cubicle their whole life.

[DanaC]

You act like everyone that needs help asks for it! Who is presumptuous now? I don't care if my stomach fell out of my body with hunger.....I would never ask for anything and neither do a lot of people........People need to ask for help? No letting people keep any dignity- make them beg.

This is why I favour a system of benefits by right. You are not 'asking for help' in a good benefits system imo, you are accessing something to which you have a right. Much less humiliating.

[Flint]

Or someone that hides in a damned cubicle their whole life.

Ouch!