So we were drunk a few months ago...

[ZenGum]

Originally Posted by Mockingbird

That was long, sorry folks. Communism/socialism/etc. is just sort of a hot button issue for me.

Long, maybe, but not repetitive, and completely devoid of name-calling, put downs, or personal attacks, so I was cool with it.


But I think you might want a now.

Have you considered the system used in China for a while under Mao? Everyone was paid the same hourly rate, but could work different hours. If you worked harder, you got more.
I know, it still seems unfair. Six hours shelving books in the library is NOT equal to six hours digging coal in an underground mine.
But the present western system doesn't seem fair either ... but QQG covers that well I thought.

[Mockingbird]

Originally Posted by ZenGum

Long, maybe, but not repetitive, and completely devoid of name-calling, put downs, or personal attacks, so I was cool with it.


But I think you might want a now.

Have you considered the system used in China for a while under Mao? Everyone was paid the same hourly rate, but could work different hours. If you worked harder, you got more.
I know, it still seems unfair. Six hours shelving books in the library is NOT equal to six hours digging coal in an underground mine.
But the present western system doesn't seem fair either ... but QQG covers that well I thought.

There will always be people fucked over, I'm not saying that any society will ever be rid of the cutthroats.

I don't know. I've gotten the short end of the stick most of my life, I grew up in a trailer park where my parents had nothing. They couldn't afford to put me through college, and we were barely fed. I got a scholarship, had it revoked on a technicality, then still went on. I wanted an education and a good life and no paths were open to me. I sold cocaine for a few years (I knew the risk and have had more than one gun in my face, but there weren't many other options), saved up the money for college and earned a job where I work only 20 hours a week, but work hard and get paid many times over what my father made when I was a boy, even adjusting for inflation.

I'm in college now and working, and I haven't had anything handed to me. My father was a hard worker, too, but he did a lot of manual labor. I think maybe that now it's more important to work smarter than harder, and there's a bonus if you don't mind struggling past other people or being a bit of a bastard now and then. I just know that I am where I am now because of what I did and I worked hard to get here.

Also, what would socialist capitalism even look like? If we had universal free health care, and better government institutions, wouldn't it be the same thing as capitalism, just with a better organized government?

[queequeger]

Originally Posted by Mockingbird

Also, what would socialist capitalism even look like? If we had universal free health care, and better government institutions, wouldn't it be the same thing as capitalism, just with a better organized government?

That's a pretty good summary right there. The idea is higher taxes (think 50% on average, maybe even higher... of course progressive in nature rather than flat) and much more comprehensive in nature. Meaning universal free education, as high as you can earn (though you do still have to earn the grades). Meaning free health care for everyone (although I think you should be able to opt to pay more for better than average service). Meaning if you're disabled or can't work for a short time, free food.

No one should have to worry about shelter, food, medicine, or education. Everyone who CAN work, should. With this system you still have the motivation to work harder and you are rewarded for it, but it leaves no one wanting. Wikipedia's entries are under 'social democracy' although that's a misnomer because socialism is supposed to be democratic, not despotic like the USSR. I guess someone high jacked the name Social capitalism with some theory that institutionalizes social strata.

but yeah, I wasn't meaning to imply the popular idea of communism (i.e. russia's twisted BS factory) I mean that through technology and idealogical advancements, we'll create a form of socialism without even trying to.

[Mockingbird]

Originally Posted by queequeger

That's a pretty good summary right there. The idea is higher taxes (think 50% on average, maybe even higher... of course progressive in nature rather than flat) and much more comprehensive in nature. Meaning universal free education, as high as you can earn (though you do still have to earn the grades). Meaning free health care for everyone (although I think you should be able to opt to pay more for better than average service). Meaning if you're disabled or can't work for a short time, free food.

No one should have to worry about shelter, food, medicine, or education. Everyone who CAN work, should. With this system you still have the motivation to work harder and you are rewarded for it, but it leaves no one wanting. Wikipedia's entries are under 'social democracy' although that's a misnomer because socialism is supposed to be democratic, not despotic like the USSR. I guess someone high jacked the name Social capitalism with some theory that institutionalizes social strata.

but yeah, I wasn't meaning to imply the popular idea of communism (i.e. russia's twisted BS factory) I mean that through technology and idealogical advancements, we'll create a form of socialism without even trying to.

I agree, I think that people have forgotten the use of many common words, even our forms of government. If you analyze the United States for example, you'll find that it's a lax republic rather than a true democracy. Which is actually better, depending on who you ask. Everyone is so used to calling it a democracy though, that you don't really think twice about it. In the case of 'socialism' we could substitute a new meaning in there to distill the bitter Russian taste. How about:

Socialism: A form of government operating on the philosophy of not being a dick to a stranger, ever.

See, that's much easier to understand.