Islamo-Fascism Awareness Week

[TheMercenary]

Originally Posted by ElBandito

It wasn't a comparison of Hitler-Bush. Who wants to do that again? Go through all that guff.

It was that external, ultra-demonic enemy, used against a populace to inspire nationalism and fervour, allowing the governing body to do what they want.

Islam is the new Communism - damn right. Hell, I'd go so far as to say Islam is the new war on drugs.

Does Islam deserve it? I don't think so. No more than the Jews during WWII. Does any People deserve it?

It has very little to do with Islam. It has to do with a minority of radical elements who have co-opted the cause and a majority who are afraid to speak up. There is no way you can compare the democracy of today to the Nazi's and Facists of yesteryear. It is like people who believe in Bible code. Parallels can be drawn from many situations.

[Happy Monkey]

Originally Posted by TheMercenary

There is no way you can compare the democracy of today to the Nazi's and Facists of yesteryear.

I think the comparison was between the democracy of today, and the democracy of Pre-WWII Germany.

[TheMercenary]

Originally Posted by Happy Monkey

I think the comparison was between the democracy of today, and the democracy of Pre-WWII Germany.

Which lead to the rise of Facism and Nazism? No deal. I don't buy the comparison that our current democracy is in someway akin to what lead to the events in Germany and the rise of such evil.

[Happy Monkey]

Originally Posted by TheMercenary

Which lead to the rise of Facism and Nazism? No deal. I don't buy the comparison that our current democracy is in someway akin to what lead to the events in Germany and the rise of such evil.

Neither would have the pre-war Germans.

Americans aren't some sort of super-race that can feel free to use the tactics of fear and nationalism and expect the fundamental goodness of our country to protect us from their ill effects.

[TheMercenary]

Originally Posted by Happy Monkey

Neither would have the pre-war Germans.

Americans aren't some sort of super-race that can feel free to use the tactics of fear and nationalism and expect the fundamental goodness of our country to protect us from their ill effects.

I don't think they don't expect anything, nor do Americans think they are a "super-race". It is MHO that the "ill effects" are overblown.

[queequeger]

Originally Posted by TheMercenary

I don't think they don't expect anything, nor do Americans think they are a "super-race". It is MHO that the "ill effects" are overblown.

You can't seriously tell me that Americans don't feel 'special' or 'superior' in majority. Look at any thread on illegal immigration and the whole thing will REEK of excessive nationalism. Any topic comparing the US to any other nation or group of people results in this display of flag waving and preaching.

Since WWII our government has been employing propaganda machines saying that effectively we are democracy, we are the perfected government and we must defend our freedom-democracy-liberty machine against the evil intentioned 'other.' The difference now is that the 'war information movies' don't have the 'office of war information' banner at the beginning. In fact, the videos and press that are shared now have been engineered to look like real news, trying to hide their propaganda.

Let's be clear: I'm not using 'propaganda' in the sense that it is exclusively produced by the US. Just about every country that has been involved in a modern war has used it to rally their people. This is mostly because people almost never react the way their leaders want if they are presented with all the information and given a while to decide. It's FAR more effective to create a black-and-white landscape.

The point I'm making is that you cannot refute the claim that Americans have been raised by birth to believe that we are THE beacon of democracy and enemies are all around us, who hate freedom. I think, in fact, that the 90s were the only decade in recent memory where there WASN'T a vast faceless enemy trying to destroy us... mostly because there was no group that could be made into it.

Also... how does it have nothing to do with Islam when the name we given to our enemy is 'The Islamo-fascists.' Why aren't they just fascists?

[ZenGum]

Originally Posted by queequeger

SNIP
I think, in fact, that the 90s were the only decade in recent memory where there WASN'T a vast faceless enemy trying to destroy us... mostly because there was no group that could be made into it.

Did you notice that in the 1990s there was a spate of movies on the theme of hostile Aliens attacking the Earth, and being repelled (mostly) by the US? Eg. Independence Day and Battlefield Earth. With no Earthly foe, Hollywood had to look upwards.
Meanwhile, their was a spike in nutty conspiracy theorists worried that the UN was going to attempt to take over the USA (and that civilian militias with assault rifles were gonna stop 'em!).
Some part of the American collective psyche has a strong urge to play the role of Defender of the Home Against the Foreign Foe. Partly it is economic - stimulating the arms industry. But I think it is mostly psychological. Through the history of the 20th century and a tide of movies with this theme, this is where a good many Americans see themselves. Take away the foreign foe ... and they suddenly don't have a place to be, a role to fill.
(emphasis: this is not true of all Americans. Just some, but they're enough to be influential.)

Also those comedians WERE the Chaser team, who did the stunt at the APEC meeting. And while I presume they had to interview hundreds of people to get those comments that went to air, and so those views are probably a tiny minority, nevertheless they still got those replies from some people. Strange how something can be funny and still very, very scary.

[TheMercenary]

Originally Posted by queequeger

You can't seriously tell me that Americans don't feel 'special' or 'superior' in majority. Look at any thread on illegal immigration and the whole thing will REEK of excessive nationalism. Any topic comparing the US to any other nation or group of people results in this display of flag waving and preaching.

Since WWII our government has been employing propaganda machines saying that effectively we are democracy, we are the perfected government and we must defend our freedom-democracy-liberty machine against the evil intentioned 'other.' The difference now is that the 'war information movies' don't have the 'office of war information' banner at the beginning. In fact, the videos and press that are shared now have been engineered to look like real news, trying to hide their propaganda.

Let's be clear: I'm not using 'propaganda' in the sense that it is exclusively produced by the US. Just about every country that has been involved in a modern war has used it to rally their people. This is mostly because people almost never react the way their leaders want if they are presented with all the information and given a while to decide. It's FAR more effective to create a black-and-white landscape.

The point I'm making is that you cannot refute the claim that Americans have been raised by birth to believe that we are THE beacon of democracy and enemies are all around us, who hate freedom. I think, in fact, that the 90s were the only decade in recent memory where there WASN'T a vast faceless enemy trying to destroy us... mostly because there was no group that could be made into it.

Also... how does it have nothing to do with Islam when the name we given to our enemy is 'The Islamo-fascists.' Why aren't they just fascists?

The bottom line is that I can seriously tell you that Americans don't feel 'special' or 'superior' in majority any more than any other counties citizens do about their home. You mean to try to tell me that people in China, UK, Canada, North Korea, Mexico, Venezuela, Cuba, or any other country does not exhibit a certain sense of nationalistic pride?? Every country does so. I have spent a lot of time with soldiers from the UK and a few other countries and they are furiously proud and nationalistic about their owns country, as they should be. We have the same pride as others do. Other countries, many, use film and differing levels of propaganda to support their notions of nationalism. Nothing new there.

What we have is difference among governments, not among people and their response to a sense of nationalistic pride. It is the policy and actions of governments, albeit temporary in nature, that get people all bent out of shape and make them want to spew hate toward each other. We are becoming more and more polarized as a nation and as a world.

This has little to do with Islam because you are using a minority of radical islamic believers to define the cause. Most followers of Islam are peaceful and want to be left alone like many other. I am all for our country using whatever means are available in finding these radicals anywhere in the world in any country and hunting them down and killing them. That is not the issue. The issue is that it is a minority of all of those who follow Islam.

[ElBandito]

Originally Posted by TheMercenary

It has very little to do with Islam. It has to do with a minority of radical elements who have co-opted the cause and a majority who are afraid to speak up. There is no way you can compare the democracy of today to the Nazi's and Facists of yesteryear. It is like people who believe in Bible code. Parallels can be drawn from many situations.

I think what we tend to lose sight of is that initially the Nazi party was a minority of radical elements who co-opted a cause and led a majority who were afraid to speak up...

There's nothing that's simultaneously more chilling and entertaining than watching 'Triumph of the Will', most expressly the scene with over 100,000 'Road-workers' standing in formation with their shovels on their shoulders. These guys weren't the military, they were roadworkers. And in the film they espoused a certain nationalistic fervour that's (in retrospect quite camp) rather scary.

[piercehawkeye45]

Originally Posted by ElBandito

I think what we tend to lose sight of is that initially the Nazi party was a minority of radical elements who co-opted a cause and led a majority who were afraid to speak up...

I thought the Hitler was tremendously popular right before and during the the beginning of the war?

Hitler brought the whole country out of one of the biggest depressions in history, and raised the standard of living of everyone that was "pure". Hitler was probably just as popular as FDR if not even more.

For the whole Jews part. From a civilian standpoint, they didn't know about the holocaust at the time or just chose to be ignorant, the Jews were probably treated in the same way as blacks were treated in the United States. The US was pretty anti-semitic at the time as well. I think it had to do more with the Nazi party hiding facts and the people too concerned about other interests to care about what was happening to them. That is the scariest part about any country, the people not even caring that they are being taken over from the inside.

Here is an article about why Hitler was so popular:
http://www.fff.org/freedom/fd0703a.asp

Here is the discussion on the cellar:
http://cellar.org/showthread.php?t=15017