University to students: 'All whites are racist'

[Clodfobble]

Originally Posted by rkzenrage

If you are proud of the positives that you had nothing to do with you must also be of the negatives, correct, or is this similar to theism where you only associate with the truths you like and disassociate with those that you do not wish to acknowledge?

Possibly one could feel shame associated with the negatives in one's history instead, as long as the personal connection is roughly of equal strength as the pride in the positive aspects.

[TheMercenary]

Originally Posted by Clodfobble

Possibly one could feel shame associated with the negatives in one's history instead, as long as the personal connection is roughly of equal strength as the pride in the positive aspects.

No one should carry around "shame" for historical acts unless you were directly responsible in some way.

[bluecuracao]

Not personal "shame," anyway. But society as a whole should be aware of historical acts, and recognize which ones shouldn't be repeated, and maybe even need to be corrected...to help the present eventually become better history, hopefully.

Even though none of us are individually responsible for what happened in history (good and bad), it's still part of what we are, because we came from it.

[glatt]

Originally Posted by TheMercenary

No one should carry around "shame" for historical acts unless you were directly responsible in some way.

On the surface it makes good sense. I tend to agree. But I wonder about this.

What if you today are continuing to benefit from some historical act, while someone else is continuing to be a victim from the same act? Let me make up an example: If your great grandfather was a pirate who amassed great wealth by stealing it from others. You grew up in this rich family, and today you meet a descendant of one of your great grandfather's victims. You are wearing some expensive jewelry that used to belong to the family of this other guy. You didn't personally steal it, but you still posses it. Should you feel shame for that? (I think yes.)

Now change the example to something that's more of a gray area. You grew up in an old plantation in the South. Your family is one of the few that is still well off from the money generated by slave labor over a century ago. Should you feel shame that you are well off, while some of the descendants of your family's former slaves live in poverty? (I think yes, a little.)

One final example. You are the child of immigrants, living in the South. Nobody in your family even lived in this country during the time that slavery was legal. You work hard and save up enough money to buy a nice historic old house that happens to have been built by slave labor. Any shame there? (I think no.)

[lookout123]

You are wearing some expensive jewelry that used to belong to the family of this other guy. You didn't personally steal it, but you still posses it. Should you feel shame for that? (I think yes.)

Why? Did I steal it? Did I do anything to possess it other than be born? Did the other guy do anything that necessarily entitles him to possess it? If it is something that is easily identifiable as historical item of significance and important to the other guy's family, then it would be an act of class to gift it to him, but certainly not necessary.

Should you feel shame that you are well off, while some of the descendants of your family's former slaves live in poverty? (I think yes, a little.)

Again, why? Did I personally do anything that led these people into poverty? My guilt or feelings of discomfort are reserved for things that I have some sort of control over. I can't control what happened then, I can control what I do now. Flip it to the otherside (much smaller scale) My grandfather once invested in and owned large tracts of land where midway airport is today. He was absolutely and verifiably screwed over by a couple of individuals who became stinking wealthy and have passed that wealth on to the current generation. My grandfather never recovered financially and died penniless and had nothing to pass on. Should I have some claim to those riches? I don't think so, those were events before I was born and have no bearing ont he choices I make with my life and the opportunities I have in front of me.

You work hard and save up enough money to buy a nice historic old house that happens to have been built by slave labor. Any shame there? (I think no.)

absolutely not, it is just a piece of property and who built it is of little relevance except for coctail party conversation.

[glatt]

Originally Posted by lookout123

Why? Did I steal it? Did I do anything to possess it other than be born? Did the other guy do anything that necessarily entitles him to possess it? If it is something that is easily identifiable as historical item of significance and important to the other guy's family, then it would be an act of class to gift it to him, but certainly not necessary.

Let's assume in this example that if it hadn't been stolen a century ago, it would be his. And you both know it, but it can't be proven in any court.

You say it would be a class act to return it. I agree. I'd go further and say there is shame in continuing to hold onto it, because it's ill gotten. I think that by continuing to hold onto it, the person is actively continuing a misdeed done by their ancestor.

I don't know where to draw the line though. I think something like paying off the descendants of the slaves would be drawing the line too far, for example.

[lookout123]

see i feel no guilt in continuing to hold it. if i felt compelled to give it to them, so be it. but you can't make me feel guilty about holding something just because someone a long time ago stole it. i just feel every family has a skeleton in the closet and you can make yourself crazy trying to fix a wrong that occurred long before you were born.

if the other guy has spent his whole life, and his father's life without the possession and probably didn't even know it existed, why does he need it now? it has never been in his life before and he has continued to breathe up to this point.

[glatt]

I just remembered that I have a German army helmet from WW2 stashed in a trunk somewhere. Don't know the story of where it came from, other than my grandfather, who never served, gave it to me a while ago. Don't know where he got it. There's a good chance that who ever owned it was killed in combat and it was collected on the battlefield. Or maybe it was collected from a prisoner. Either way, it was probably taken by force. I have no problem holding on to it. Feel no guilt.

Beats me.