Sub-prime Bail Out

[tw]

Originally Posted by Radar

The stock market...and ALL markets could easily exist and would thrive without any government intervention or regulation and would make sure that all trades were fair and equitable because they would be voluntary.

Wow. Attitudes that underly Marxist socialism - from Radar. If Radar has posted accurately, then no stock market ever need exist. We are all honest and equal. We all treat one another with equality and impartiality every time. Stocks would be traded freely on any street without all that market regulation. That only possible if we all live according to principles that permit Marxist socialism.

Why do stock markets exist? Trading of stocks on the street, as in Radar's model, never works. Stocks need a controlled environment (NASDAQ, LSE, the Frankfort Exchange, etc) because stock exchanges only work in the safe and well defined environment of regulated exchanges. Radar says none of the world stock markets need exist. We don't need brokers. We don't need regulations and laws. We don't need all that bureacracy. The problem with this Radar world: stock markets exist because those standards, control and regulation are necessary. Without regulations of markets, then anarchy would reign.

There is a fine line between too much regulation and insufficient regulation. So we have numerous financial instruments with various types of regulation. But in every case, some regulation and laws are always required. No way around that imposed 'level playing field' to make free market economies work.

[Radar]

Originally Posted by tw

Wow. Attitudes that underly Marxist socialism - from Radar. If Radar has posted accurately, then no stock market ever need exist. We are all honest and equal. We all treat one another with equality and impartiality every time. Stocks would be traded freely on any street without all that market regulation. That only possible if we all live according to principles that permit Marxist socialism.

Why do stock markets exist? Trading of stocks on the street, as in Radar's model, never works. Stocks need a controlled environment (NASDAQ, LSE, the Frankfort Exchange, etc) because stock exchanges only work in the safe and well defined environment of regulated exchanges. Radar says none of the world stock markets need exist. We don't need brokers. We don't need regulations and laws. We don't need all that bureacracy. The problem with this Radar world: stock markets exist because those standards, control and regulation are necessary. Without regulations of markets, then anarchy would reign.

There is a fine line between too much regulation and insufficient regulation. So we have numerous financial instruments with various types of regulation. But in every case, some regulation and laws are always required. No way around that imposed 'level playing field' to make free market economies work.

You're taking a huge leap and claiming I've said things I didn't. I said markets could exist and thrive without any government regulation. Without regulations on these markets, anarchy would most certainly NOT ensue. To claim that without government regulations, the markets wouldn't be regulated privately is laughable. To claim the markets wouldn't be held to standards, including standards that require honesty in trading, is on the verge of retarded.

Markets would exist without any regulation at all. They would be organized, held to standards, and regulated privately. We would still have brokers, and traders, etc. because most people would feel more confident trading stocks with these people than with a guy trading stock certificates from the trunk of his car. What would the problem be with going to a store on the street to buy stocks? I don't see one.

Without government intervention the playing field is always level. It's government that makes things unfair and tilts the playing field. Government regulations allow politically influential businesses to gain an unfair advantage over new start-ups or prevents new businesses from starting up at all.

[tw]

Originally Posted by Radar

You're taking a huge leap and claiming I've said things I didn't. I said markets could exist and thrive without any government regulation. Without regulations on these markets, anarchy would most certainly NOT ensue. To claim that without government regulations, the markets wouldn't be regulated privately is laughable. To claim the markets wouldn't be held to standards, including standards that require honesty in trading, is on the verge of retarded.

What are toy industry benchmarks begging for? Government regulations. Standards so that their 'fly by night' peers must also protect kids from lead paint and date rape drugs. The most responsible American toy manufactures - those who voluntarily announced dangerous toys as soon as the problem was discovered (ie Mattel) want regulations to create a level and productive free market.

If stock markets could exist without regulations, then nobody needs a stock market. All trading would be on the street. Why do stock markets create so much trading and capital investment? To repeat what you avoid: because without those regulations, then stock trading will halt due to the anarchy. If what you are saying had any truth, then all stock markets would fail completely. Stock markets would have no purpose. Why do stock markets exist? Why do commodity exchanges exist? Because productive trading cannot exist without regulations - a standard, level, safe, and predictable trading floor (virtual or real). Anarchy (also called widespread criminal activity) would create near zero trading.

The only reason stock, bond, commodity, etc markets exist is because that is where the regulations exist and are enforced. Even the private markets demand certain government regulations so that their trading is secure, honest, and liquid.

Name one trading exchange that exists without government regulation? Smuggling? What happens when smuggling markets become legal - conform to laws? Trading increases. Everyone is wealthier. People stop getting shot down in the streets. Name that market that thrives better due to zero regulations? It does not exist. If you knew markets would be better with zero regulations, then why do you not list 100 of them? Because they do not exist. A certain amount of regulation always results in a more productive and profitable market.

[Radar]

Originally Posted by tw

What are toy industry benchmarks begging for? Government regulations. Standards so that their 'fly by night' peers must also protect kids from lead paint and date rape drugs. The most responsible American toy manufactures - those who voluntarily announced dangerous toys as soon as the problem was discovered (ie Mattel) want regulations to create a level and productive free market.

The toy industry does a very good job at regulating itself. They VOLUNTARILY recall toys that do not meet their high standards. Mattel is a great company and is certainly not responsible when people in China don't stick to the standards they've laid out, but they immediately recalled toys and took a hit on their reputation. Government regulatiosn don't give "confidence". Also, claims of "date rape" drugs are false. GHB is not a date rape drug. It's a party drug used by ravers. From what I understand these toys didn't even have GHB on them, they had another chemical that metabolized into GHB when inside the human body.

Originally Posted by tw

If stock markets could exist without regulations, then nobody needs a stock market.

That is 100% False.

Originally Posted by tw

All trading would be on the street.

Again, entirely false. Most people don't want to buy or sell stock with a guy working from the trunk of his car. They want to work with reputable businesses.

Originally Posted by tw

Why do stock markets create so much trading and capital investment? To repeat what you avoid: because without those regulations, then stock trading will halt due to the anarchy.

That is an outright lie. Without government regulations stifling business, the stock markets would continue to exist, see triple their current trading volume, and would have much greater returns on investments.

Originally Posted by tw

If what you are saying had any truth, then all stock markets would fail completely. Stock markets would have no purpose. Why do stock markets exist? Why do commodity exchanges exist? Because productive trading cannot exist without regulations - a standard, level, safe, and predictable trading floor (virtual or real). Anarchy (also called widespread criminal activity) would create near zero trading.

Why do farmer's markets exist? To have a central place where people can buy vegetables from many farms. Stock markets exist so investors have a single place where they can buy or sell stocks from various companies. These would still exist. Trading would easily continue without any government regulations. The trading floor would be MORE predictable, safe, level, and held to better standards without government involvement. Government regulations don't prevent criminal activity, they promote it.

Originally Posted by tw

The only reason stock, bond, commodity, etc markets exist is because that is where the regulations exist and are enforced. Even the private markets demand certain government regulations so that their trading is secure, honest, and liquid.

You're batting a thousand. You are wrong again. You may want to read the writings of famous economists (Several have won the Nobel prize in economists) like Robert J. Barro, Walter Block, James Buchanan, Donald J. Boudreaux, Richard M. Ebeling, David Friedman, Milton Friedman, Friedrich Hayek, Robert Higgs, Israel Kirzner, Ludwig von Mises, Murray N. Rothbard, Mark Skousen, Thomas Sowell, Vernon Smith, Mark Thornton, Richard Timberlake, and Walter Williams. Perhaps then you wouldn't be so clueless when it comes to economics.

Originally Posted by tw

Name one trading exchange that exists without government regulation?

Farmer's Markets, Computer Fairs, Swap Meets, etc.

Also, remember that not having government regulations is not the same as being unregulated. Self-regulation in the markets is what is called for. Government regulations CREATE uncertainty, unfairness, etc. in the markets.