American Excess

[lookout123]

we tried amnesty in the '80's. it didn't work as now all the illegals here are just waiting for the next go-round. the reason that immigration isn't easily reformed is evident in small scale in arizona right now. Immigration reform has to start with controlling our existing borders better and getting a handle on those that are already here. If they broke the law to get here, and they broke the law to work illegally, then they are by definition criminals. You don't give known criminals legal residency status.

The voters passed a measure that would penalize employers found to knowingly employ illegal immigrants. This isn't a law limiting immigration - it is a law that creates a tangible penalty for breaking an existing law. If the employer is proven to knowingly employ an illegal then the business license is revoked for a minimum of 10 days and all operations have to stop, along with monetary penalties.

Business owners - including a handful of fast food restaurant franchisees immediately sued to stop the law saying it was unfair. Their case was dismissed. They have gone to the press crying "I could lose my business if an illegal slips in and gets hired." Untrue. It is a system of attrition - all new hires must be checked within 72 hours. Their name and social security number is checked against the everify system. If it comes up clean the employer cannot be held responsible for future findings on the employee. If it gets flagged it is up to the employee to provide proof of legal residence or they are terminated. Seems simple enough - but employers are trying to block it.

[aimeecc]

Originally Posted by lookout123

If they broke the law to get here, and they broke the law to work illegally, then they are by definition criminals. You don't give known criminals legal residency status.

Have you ever sped? I bet the answer is yes. You broke the law. You are therefore a criminal, and we should question your morality. Maybe we should take away your right to vote since you are a criminal? Seriously, do you think we should categorize all illegal immigrants as criminals? Do you think we should categorize every person who broke any law as criminals? Speeding? What about littering? Were you ever late re-registering your car? Has your drivers licence ever expired before you went in and got a new one? What about loosing your ID, and going around for a few days before having the time to go in and get a new one? All of these acts is illegal. So I guess I am a criminal too.

I don't think the majority of people believe the majority of illegal immigrants are "criminals", which implies deviant behavior and a propensity to break serious laws. They are seeking a better life. I think the issue most people have with their illegal status is that they do not pay into the 'system' (taxes) yet receive the benefits (medical care).

[BigV]

Originally Posted by aimeecc

--snip--so why not make them legal (with obviously some scrutiny... don't want felons to stay)? If they become legal, ...--snip--

Originally Posted by lookout123

we tried amnesty in the '80's. --snip--

From wikipedia, an adequate resource for this purpose.

Amnesty (from the Greek amnestia, oblivion) is an act of justice by which the supreme power in a state restores those who may have been guilty of any offense against it to the position of innocent persons. It includes more than pardon, inasmuch as it obliterates all legal remembrance of the offense. The word has the same root as amnesia.

I'm so sick of hearing the word "amnesty" abused in this way.

"Making them legal" != "amnesty". It *could be*, but it doesn't have to be. There have been several suggestions as to the method by which the immigrants that are here could be "made legal". Some of these include punishments, which is in perfect harmony with much of the rest of our legal system, where a person found guilty of a crime pays a penalty. After which life goes on. Nobody ever raises a stink about amnesty after the completion of the penalty phase for these other crimes. I think this narrow issue should be treated in a comparable way, and not used as a trigger for hysterical fearmongering demagogues.

C'mon people. You can do better.