What Iraqis Really Think

[aimeecc]

The information in Iraq Index, although predominantly from the U.S. government, also gathers information from other sources. And the Brookings Institute clearly identifies where its sources are from.
http://www.brookings.edu/saban/~/med...ex20071221.pdf

NOTE ON THE METHODOLOGY OF THE IRAQ INDEX:
Although the footnotes to the Iraq Index document our sources in detail, it is worth noting here a few broad points.
The majority of our information comes from the U.S. Government, though we must often analyze it and process it
further to show trends over the full period since Saddam Hussein fell in 2003. Some information comes from
foreign journalists on the ground and from nongovernmental organizations; a very modest amount to date comes
from Iraqi sources. Most tables and charts are straightforward representations of data as we obtain it from the
above primary sources, with only modest further analysis and processing required. However, a few graphics, such
as those on crime and unemployment rates, require more methodological work (and more assumptions) on our
part—and are as a result also perhaps somewhat less precise than most of the tables and charts.

They're most recent polling is from September 2007, from liberal media.

POLLING/POLITICS
IRAQ: WHERE THINGS STAND 2007104
UPDATED SEPTEMBER 2007
Last of 4 Surveys Conducted by D3 Systems for the BBC, ABC News, ARD German TV and USA Today
(2,112 Iraqi adults from throughout the country were interviewed)

Its been released monthly since November 2003, so you can pour through back issues and see that when it was really bad, the Iraq Index was true and gave the straight facts (many killed on both sides, services lacking, negative polls). Even the most recent polls can't be quantified as "good", and sends a mixed message, as seems all polls in Iraq. But it does show that killings and deaths (on both sides) are down, and services are increasing each month.

Originally Posted by aimeecc

Not wanting our citizens to be in a country were bombing seems like a normal enough practice. I certainly don't have a problem with that.

You are certainly over-simplifying the issue. I can assure you of that. In any case, your country REFUSING you to visit a country doesn't really clear your point.

Originally Posted by aimeecc

Cuba is purely political, ......what are you doing to change them? Do you write letters to your Congressman? Do you lobby Congress? How about running for office?
Don't complain about regulations if you do absolutely nothing to try to get them changed.

Congressmen? Regulations? My country has an open political and trade relationship with Cuba. We also have direct charter turists flights to Cuba as well.

Originally Posted by classicman

psst aimee - methinks she/he (Aretha's doctor) isn't from America.

It's with a painful twitch of optimism to see that not all of your brain cells have withered and blown away.

[aimeecc]

She/he may not be... but then why care if Americans can or cannot legally travel to an extremely short list of nations the US has had occasional hostilities with?

[regular.joe]

Originally Posted by Aretha's doctor

Congressmen? Regulations? My country has an open political and trade relationship with Cuba. We also have direct charter turists flights to Cuba as well.

Thaaat's great. I'm happy for ya. Glad it works for ya. You go to Cuba, buy some cigars, have a good time.

You obviously have an axe to grind with the U.S. It's understandable, personally, I don't care. I'm not going to argue about, or defend the U.S. with some foreign national about the policies and actions of the country I'm from. I'm sure you can find lots to talk about. Good and bad.

The question at this point in time with respect to Iraq, is not whether or not we should have gone into Iraq when we did. We are there. The question is if we pull out lock, stock, and barrel right now would that be the best course for Iraq as a whole. There is lots to talk about pro and con on this issue as well.

If you have not visited Iraq, I believe that you do not have anything near a qualified opinion on the issue. That's just my opinion.

I have not been to Israel or Palestine. I do not give my unqualified opinion on the issue.

[aimeecc]

Originally Posted by Aretha's doctor

You are certainly over-simplifying the issue. I can assure you of that. In any case, your country REFUSING you to visit a country doesn't really clear your point.
Congressmen? Regulations? My country has an open political and trade relationship with Cuba. We also have direct charter turists flights to Cuba as well.

So why do you have an issue on whether I, as an American, can go to Cuba? As I plainly stated, its the only one currently on the list, and although there have been others, those have all been during hostilities with a small time frame. No, its not over simplifying, I can ASSURE you of that. Its stating the facts. With an average lifespan span of 78 years, and Sudan is on the 'no go' list for a year... I still have like 98% of my life to still go see Sudan. But wait, I've been there, its a shit hole, and I'll never go back. Not sure why any one would want to go unless they have a naive idea that they can make a difference in Darfur. Not particularly interested in going to any of the other nations on the list either, although I've been to a few of them as well.

[glatt]

Sounds like sour grapes to me. That's a poor argument.

I think it would be cool to visit Cuba. It pisses me off that my government won't let me go. Are we free, or not?

[aimeecc]

I've been to Iraq, and my opinion is... There's no easy solution.
If we pull out, the predictable out come is no more Americans killed (in Iraq at least). But what about Iraq? Will it descend further into civil war? I'd bet yes. Can Iraqi Prime Minister Nuri al-Maliki unify Iraq? Um, no.
Fast forward a few more years... more dead on both sides. Slightly improved security. More Iraqi forces trained and equipped... When the US pulls out, will it descend into civil war? I think so. The Iraqi forces will break down by sect, and sectarian violence will return. Hatred doesn't go away just because more security forces are trained. Will whomever the new PM is be able to unify Iraq? Probably not, because he probably got elected by whatever sect he's from. Probably Shi'a, unless they boycott the elections for some reason or another. The Sunnis will be pissed (again, still, always) and they'll start killing the Shia's who in turn will kill Sunnis... sound familiar?

When I was there, the Iraqi Minister of Interior would not talk to the Iraqi Minister of Defense. The US wanted to have the two coordinate on training and equipping (so the Iraqi police and the Iraqi army would have interoperable equipment), but they refused to even meet. How can reconstruction be done if the top leadership refuses to talk to each other?

Over simplified? Yeah, probably. But the hatred Iraqis show for one another doesn't disappear overnight. Or in 2 years. Or in 10. It doesn't matter how many we train or how stable we make it... once we leave, the hatred will surface and the killings will begin again.

Prior to the UN, most nations just exterminated or drove away whatever minority rebelled the most. Then the other minorities were too scared to rebel. Its harsh, but thats how it worked. Another common method was to kill the men or enslave them and send then to far reaches of the kingdom. Women were married to the soldiers, and the minority 'bred' out. So, the historic traditional solutions aren't going to work in Iraq today.

Iraq has to come to its own solution. Vietnam did. We may not like that they are Communist, but its stable there. Ok, so the quality of life isn't that great either. And they have restrictions on travel for their people (far greater than any restrictions the US has ever put on their citizens, may I point out?). And they don't have fredom of expression. Or too many other freedoms. But its stable at least.

[aimeecc]

Glatt, if you see my previous post, Cuba is purely political, not for any other reason... and I don't agree with it. But I actually don't particularly care that much because I have no desire to go to Cuba, although I've heard its nice. Just not on my list of places to go.
So, again... if you want to go to Cuba...what are you doing to change the laws? Do you write letters to your Congressman? Do you lobby Congress? How about running for office?

[regular.joe]

The Cuban Assets Control Regulations, 31 CFR
Part 515 (the “Regulations”) were issued by the U.S. Government on 8
July 1963 under the Trading With the Enemy Act in response to certain
hostile actions by the Cuban government. They are still in force today and
affect all U.S. citizens and permanent residents wherever they are
located, all people and organizations physically in the United States, and
all branches and subsidiaries of U.S. organizations throughout the world.
The Regulations are administered by the U.S. Treasury Department's
Office of Foreign Assets Control. The basic goal of the sanctions is to
isolate the Cuban government economically and deprive it of U.S. dollars.
Criminal penalties for violating the sanctions range up to 10 years in
prison, $1,000,000 in corporate fines, and $250,000 in individual fines.
Civil penalties up to $55,000 per violation may also be imposed. Please
note that the Regulations require those dealing with Cuba to maintain
records and, upon request from the U.S. Treasury Department, to
furnish information regarding such dealings.

Glatt, get elected. Make some changes. Lobby your elected officials, get involved. No one in the U.S. will threaten your life or liberty for speaking up. Well, no one on the payroll of the U.S. Treasury.

[TheMercenary]

Originally Posted by Aretha's doctor

My country has an open political and trade relationship with Cuba. We also have direct charter turists flights to Cuba as well.

Great, what country? You still have not told us, but you did remove the little flag avatar by your name. Fill us in here.

[glatt]

Originally Posted by regular.joe

Glatt, get elected. Make some changes. Lobby your elected officials, get involved.

I said it would be cool to visit, not that I was willing to work my ass off, fighting the system so I can go. There are lots of places I think it would be cool to visit. I'll go to those others first, as it is less effort.

It just pisses me off that my government won't let me go. That's what the East German government did to its citizens. We are not free if our own government restricts our travel. It's the principle of the thing.

[TheMercenary]

Originally Posted by regular.joe

Thaaat's great. I'm happy for ya. Glad it works for ya. You go to Cuba, buy some cigars, have a good time.

You obviously have an axe to grind with the U.S. It's understandable, personally, I don't care. I'm not going to argue about, or defend the U.S. with some foreign national about the policies and actions of the country I'm from. I'm sure you can find lots to talk about. Good and bad.

The question at this point in time with respect to Iraq, is not whether or not we should have gone into Iraq when we did. We are there. The question is if we pull out lock, stock, and barrel right now would that be the best course for Iraq as a whole. There is lots to talk about pro and con on this issue as well.

Here, here.

[regular.joe]

Glatt, our laws are malleable. Get off of your ass, quit complaining, hell continue complaining....just get off of your ass and change it.

[TheMercenary]

Originally Posted by regular.joe

Glatt, our laws are malleable. Get off of your ass, quit complaining, hell continue complaining....just get off of your ass and change it.

All laws are malleable, our govenment, Constitution, all of it is a living breathing document subject to adjustment as time changes. The next 8 months should be interesting, as will the following 4 years.