Can We Call This Progress?

[Undertoad]

Now on three other forums

I too would consider myself to be a self-actualized self-learner, but you have now made me skeptical about using the prefix self in everything. It's nice you are interested in things - "the unexamined life not worth living" and all that.

But we do notice that you are fully concerned with self and not so concerned with other. For example, in the above post you wrote an essay about what you are concerned about, but failed to actually answer Bruce's question. Those posters whom I have seen doing this sort of thing seem to be smart but not wise.

You go to all sorts of forums with no interest in the people there, only looking to poot your essay around. That's fine, and if it's written well we like it, but you're missing the perspective of hundreds of people, available free for the asking, who have seen so much of the world that you haven't. Wouldn't you like to see how rugged individualists can use an ancient tractor and saw to cut up a load of wood in the back country? Wouldn't that be a nice addition to your understanding of the world?

[Griff]

That is a nice smart essay, but to me the rugged individualist is nothing if not a problem solver. I'm going to hazard a guess that you're talking about global warming and population bombs. It occurs to me that heavy fossil fuel usage is more a result of mass society and collective decision making than individual choice. If you travel rural America you would note that people are beginning to choose wind power and would do so more readily if the collective stopped subsidizing fossil fuels. If population is your bugaboo just consider that without immigration US Americans would have little population growth. As individuals we've decided to have fewer children.

[xoxoxoBruce]

I think it is possible that the development of a scholarly middle class could represent a similar development in the life of democracy of a nation.

A middle class MENSA, in tweed jackets with leather elbow patches, that discuss what's wrong with the world at length, but never actually DO anything.

[coberst]

Originally Posted by xoxoxoBruce

A middle class MENSA, in tweed jackets with leather elbow patches, that discuss what's wrong with the world at length, but never actually DO anything.

What am I doing to solve these problems? I am posting important ideas on the Internet forum in the hope that a few of the readers will become curious and interested enough to become self-actualizing self-learners.

[coberst]

Originally Posted by Griff

That is a nice smart essay, but to me the rugged individualist is nothing if not a problem solver. I'm going to hazard a guess that you're talking about global warming and population bombs. It occurs to me that heavy fossil fuel usage is more a result of mass society and collective decision making than individual choice. If you travel rural America you would note that people are beginning to choose wind power and would do so more readily if the collective stopped subsidizing fossil fuels. If population is your bugaboo just consider that without immigration US Americans would have little population growth. As individuals we've decided to have fewer children.

“In Mexico, farmers who noticed velvetbean growing wild in their fields used it to increase soil fertility and improve maize yields. In Northern Ethiopia, farmers reclaimed farmland from a river by constructing walls in the river bed and diverting the water flow. In India, an innovative farmer designed a tree plantation that successfully survived a severe three-year drought. Farmers' innovations have stood the test of time and hold the potential to meet the challenges of increasing production and managing the natural resource base.

During the last 40 or 50 years, however, many farmers have relied less on their own experimentation and innovation, and become more dependent on outside information provided through extension systems. This has had the effect of disempowering many farmers, as they became passive recipients of knowledge and technology.”
http://www.farmradio.org/english/pub...s/v2003sep.asp

The US began as a nation of individuals constantly moving west, moving from civilized areas to a new frontier. Such individuals who were capable of hooking up a wagon to a team of oxen and joining a wagon train going west through a wilderness filled with danger represents not only the myth but the reality of America. And Americans like to think of them self in this way although it is no longer true.

The rugged individual had no grocery store or hardware store close by when the need arose. S/he had to make do with what ever they were able to create to solve he immediate problem.

[xoxoxoBruce]

Originally Posted by coberst

During the last 40 or 50 years, however, many farmers have relied less on their own experimentation and innovation, and become more dependent on outside information provided through extension systems. This has had the effect of disempowering many farmers, as they became passive recipients of knowledge and technology.”
http://www.farmradio.org/english/pub...s/v2003sep.asp

Farming is hard work, before dawn, till after dark... every day. Farmers don't have time for dialog, they have to do... right now.

For way more than 50 years, farmers have relied on the State University Extension Systems to answer questions about problems with livestock, and how to make their crop fields more productive, from the collective wisdom of all the farmers, the University contacts.

In the recent past, the increasing cost of chemical fertilizers/pesticides, and the growing awareness of possible health problems, have made a large minority of the farmers, want to switch back to a more natural (organic) method of farming. You know what, the Extension Service has that information too! They don't replace, just continually add to, the collective wisdom.

[coberst]

Originally Posted by Undertoad

Now on three other forums

I too would consider myself to be a self-actualized self-learner, but you have now made me skeptical about using the prefix self in everything. It's nice you are interested in things - "the unexamined life not worth living" and all that.

But we do notice that you are fully concerned with self and not so concerned with other. For example, in the above post you wrote an essay about what you are concerned about, but failed to actually answer Bruce's question. Those posters whom I have seen doing this sort of thing seem to be smart but not wise.

You go to all sorts of forums with no interest in the people there, only looking to poot your essay around. That's fine, and if it's written well we like it, but you're missing the perspective of hundreds of people, available free for the asking, who have seen so much of the world that you haven't. Wouldn't you like to see how rugged individualists can use an ancient tractor and saw to cut up a load of wood in the back country? Wouldn't that be a nice addition to your understanding of the world?

I seek to make my readers conscious of important ideas. Consciousness of ideas is the first step toward gaining the knowledge and understanding required to comprehend those problems and possibly in dialogue with others to solve the problems discovered.

[Undertoad]

Originally Posted by coberst

I seek to make my readers conscious of important ideas. Consciousness of ideas is the first step toward gaining the knowledge and understanding required to comprehend those problems and possibly in dialogue with others to solve the problems discovered.

In other words: most people are so stupid they didn't know they had problems, but you are looking to A) explain to them what their problems are, and then B) to solve them.

(Your plan might not work here, because as you can see, I have a Bullshit-to-English dictionary.)