Times are tough all over

[Shawnee123]

Originally Posted by classicman

I pay far more than I ever get back. I have never gotten back more than I have paid in. Furthermore, the deductions I get for having children do not even remotely cover the actual costs associated with raising, caring for & educating them.

What am I missing here?

You must not be doing your taxes right, then. A single parent with what, 2 or 3 deductions, will get more money back than paid in due to EIC and additional child tax credit.

To play debil's advocate (and I get so tired of saying this) I KNOW it costs money to raise children. I didn't get you, or your ex, pregnant. I didn't participate in the coitus, had nothing to do with YOUR sperm or HER egg, and wasn't even invited into the delivery room.

I assure you my TOTAL. TAX. LIABILITY. is not in the negative range. I've seen about 20 tax forms so far today. There was one single person, one married couple...the rest all made a profit on their taxes.

I think we should change the system to an "adopt a family" system. I'll just write my tax payment check out to a family of my choosing every year. I'd feel better.

[glatt]

Originally Posted by Shawnee123

I've seen about 20 tax forms so far today.

Think about what kind of people walk through your door. You're not seeing a fair sampling of the overall tax returns out there. I think because you are seeing this every single day, multiple times a day, you are thinking it's a big problem. But your job is to see exactly this group of people. The people who don't make a lot, but who know to fill out forms to get what is being offered.

[xoxoxoBruce]

That's true, glatt, good point. But what she's saying does prove there is that class, or sub-class, of people out there. It's just a question of how big that class is.

[glatt]

Sure. But they aren't doing anything that they aren't supposed to be doing. If they weren't eligible for those benefits, the government wouldn't provide them. And I'd argue that they are the good ones, because they are actually seeing Shawnee so they can get an education and hopefully get out of the situation they are in.

[xoxoxoBruce]

Originally Posted by glatt

Sure. But they aren't doing anything that they aren't supposed to be doing. If they weren't eligible for those benefits, the government wouldn't provide them. And I'd argue that they are the good ones, because they are actually seeing Shawnee so they can get an education and hopefully get out of the situation they are in.

Yes, they are taking advantage of a program set up to help people in their situation, nothing wrong with that.
You're right about Shawnee seeing a disproportionate number of these cases, but it still leaves the question of how large a group this group really is... are they really a statistically significant group, or minor blip in tax filer population?

[xoxoxoBruce]

Originally Posted by classicman

ME! Therein lies the problem - no matter who gets elected, I am the one paying for their promises. As a hardworking and productive member of society, I get to pay for the promises these guys make.

Originally Posted by Shawnee123

Sorry if I don't believe you...

Yeah, if you're so hard working and productive, what the hell are you doing posting on the intarweb?

[Shawnee123]

I got short-timers, man. Actually, I have for quite some time.

Besides, what are YOU doing on the interwebz...you're supposed to be over here biting my ass! :p

[Shawnee123]

Classic,

From all I've seen and heard McCain is promising 5 grand more to families.

Who do you think pays for that? Where is that funding going to come from? Oh, you're all welcome.

glatt--good point, but I don't just see poor people. I see many middle class, upper middle class as well. Those who know they won't be eligible for free money still need to go through the steps to get student loans. I don't see any millionaires, but I see an awful lot of upwards of 60 grand. I see upper middle class as well as poor.

[classicman]

Originally Posted by Shawnee123

Classic,

From all I've seen and heard McCain is promising 5 grand more to families.

Who do you think pays for that? Where is that funding going to come from?

ME! Therein lies the problem - no matter who gets elected, I am the one paying for their promises. As a hardworking and productive member of society, I get to pay for the promises these guys make.

[smoothmoniker]

Originally Posted by classicman

ME! Therein lies the problem - no matter who gets elected, I am the one paying for their promises. As a hardworking and productive member of society, I get to pay for the promises these guys make.

Ditto. I make in the mid-high 100k range, and because most of it is self-employed income, my annual tax nut is around 40k.

Yes, I know that I play music and I'm not out laying concrete or picking produce, but if anyone thinks you get to that level of income in the music industry without working your ASS off, I'd invite you to ride along with me for a week or two.

Every gig, every session, every arrangement or orchestration I write, every week on the road touring, every class I teach, it's all time spent away from my family and kids. When I drop into bed exhausted at 3am, and hustle out the door at 8am, that's a real cost to me and my family.

I'm not complaining, I'm glad to do it and I'm blessed to be able to do it. But I get viciously angry when people assume that once people have reached some arbitrary income point, they are no longer "earning it", and therefore its perfectly fine to take away their income to redistribute it elsewhere.

I pay a metric assload of taxes, and I pay it out of money that I earn, and because there's no withholding on my paychecks, I'm the one who actually writes the check to the IRS and feels the kick in the balls every time.