View on the recent Gaza/Israel stikes

[TheMercenary]

Originally Posted by Classicman

I agree with you Dana that it must be really difficult to live under those circumstances. Blaming Israel for their plight is not the answer nor is firing rockets at them going to make things better . . . only worse.

Pierce:

There is nothing wrong in terms of facts in this post. But he has made assumptions on what the Palestinians demand and what the actions of Hamas are.

Palestinians do not want to live as dogs. They are currently dependent on humanitarian sources for survival. Classicman is making the claim that Palestinians should be content with this and stop the fighting so they can live their lives as dogs without disturbing the Israelis. [sarcasm]Hell maybe they can learn to be civilized as well like the Israelis if they took up their culture and religion[/sarcasm].

Hamas is not looking for peace until the state of Israel is taken over. Basically, they would like to see the situation switched. They would like to see the Jews living like dogs so the Muslims can live in peace.

Maybe you can understand now why I don't side with either of those groups because neither side is realistic. The Palestinians have shown they will fight before they live as dogs and we know the Jews will fight to the death before they live like dogs again. Both sides are unrealistic and will bring more fighting and death.

I do not go against your views because I hate the Jews, even though I strongly disagree with Zionism, but because it cannot happen. That is why I said there are faults on both sides, neither ideology can lead to a peaceful solution.


If you still side with the belief that the Palestinians should give up their attempts at self-sufficiency so both sides can live in peace, I honestly don't really care. You can believe that a peaceful solution can come out of this and maybe you are right, but I disagree. I do not see a solution coming out of this and hence my views.

That is not differenct from what Classic just said. In the end I don't see any specific point you are trying to make on this issue. And there is no way you can really defend Hamas. I don't like what Israel has done with targeting areas with so many civilians but they are going to do as much as they can to cut the head of Hamas off before they are forced, I think via international pressure, to back off. Time will tell.

[piercehawkeye45]

Originally Posted by TheMercenary

That is not differenct from what Classic just said. In the end I don't see any specific point you are trying to make on this issue. And there is no way you can really defend Hamas. I don't like what Israel has done with targeting areas with so many civilians but they are going to do as much as they can to cut the head of Hamas off before they are forced, I think via international pressure, to back off. Time will tell.

I am making the point that the current view on the situation is flawed because of unrealistic ends. If we took a poll about the solution each dwellar would like to see on this issue, we would most likely see (and tell me if I'm wrong) something like....
"I would like to see the Palestinians stop firing rockets at Israel, which would allow Israel to stop firing rockets at Palestine, which would allow Israel to live in peace and supplies to go into Palestine"

I am saying that most likely can never be a realistic scenario because if that happened, the Palestinians could not be self-sustainable and will dependent on humanitarian supplies for an extremely long time. I have not seen anything to show that Palestinians will settle for that. It is possible, other cultures have settled for less, but as I said I have my large doubts.

Originally Posted by Classicman

I NEVER made that claim, far from it. No one should "live like dogs."

As I said earlier, by agreeing to this solution..."I would like to see the Palestinians stop firing rockets at Israel, which would allow Israel to stop firing rockets at Palestine, which would allow Israel to live in peace and supplies to go into Palestine"...it says the Palestinians should live like dogs. Don't get me wrong, I'm not calling you an asshole or even says you want the Palestinians to live like dogs, but that is how the situation is. It would be similar to saying you would like to keep white privileged and get mad when someone points out that that you support racism (racial privileged is a product of racism).

With the blockade, 80% of Gazans are dependent on foreign aid, I don't have any number without it but it would still be high because the Palestinian economy is completely shot. To be fed food, especially by people that you accuse of taking your land, cutting you off from the rest of the world, and starving you, can be considered living like a dog. If no more rockets were fired from this day forward, the economic situation in Palestine would not be different, it would still be shot and Palestinians would still be fed from outside sources.

So even if you don't believe any person or population should live like dogs, by saying that the rockets should stop and everyone live in peace you will also be saying the Palestinians will need to be fed from outside sources. If you want one, you get the other.

Originally Posted by classicman

What's their plan B? Cuz history has proved that one isn't going to work.

Death? Keep in mind, Hamas could only be temporary. Hamas is looked at in high regards because it is standing up against Israel, not necessarily because of their ideals.

Originally Posted by Undertoad

cite

I could find the quote that said that many Gazans are now becoming more supportive of Hamas but here is two other quotes for Fatah supporters.

The scope of the attacks swayed even some longtime Fatah members – and diehard Hamas opponents. A former interior ministry employee, who abided by Ramallah’s call for PA security to boycott the Hamas government, told Crisis Group that for the first five days of the bombing campaign, he was glad that Hamas was getting its comeuppance: “Israel did it to Fatah. Then Hamas did it to Fatah. Now Israel is doing it to Hamas”. But on the sixth day, with his children inconsolable after their house was heavily damaged in the attack on the justice ministry, he changed his tone: “Israel never did anything this bad to Fatah and neither did Hamas. It’s clear who the real enemy is. This is aggression against the institutions that serve the
people, against what we [the PA] built; it’s all been destroyed”.47 Another self-described former “Hamas hater” too had a change of heart, extolling the “Islamic model” over the “corruption” of the PA and its Arab allies. When asked the reason for this conversion, he replied, “They are destroying mosques. They don’t want children to know about the Koran or their religion”.48

http://www.crisisgroup.org/library/d...ar_in_gaza.pdf

The lack of interest was not, for certain, lack of support for Hamas. Fury is rising here over the war in Gaza, as are support for Hamas and anger with the Palestinian Authority in this city, which has long been the beating heart of opposition to Israeli occupation of the West Bank. Many want the authority and the Palestinian president, Mahmoud Abbas of the Fatah party, to do more to criticize Israel.

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/01/06/wo...ed=1&ref=world

Originally Posted by Undertoad

1) European news sources?

No, United States.

Originally Posted by Undertoad

2) This is confused, isn't it? News sources report facts, opinion sources criticize. When the news sources criticize we can no longer trust their facts.

I was not talking about open criticism. Sources can display certain facts in certain ways to make the situation seem like it happened a certain way. The facts given are not wrong but there is much more than what is seen.

Originally Posted by Undertoad

"Hamas has nothing left but rockets"

So Islamic papers are saying Hamas won and Jewish papers say Hamas has lost? I don't know the credibilities but what are you trying to point out?

[classicman]

Originally Posted by piercehawkeye45

As I said earlier, by agreeing to this solution..."I would like to see the Palestinians stop firing rockets at Israel, which would allow Israel to stop firing rockets at Palestine, which would allow Israel to live in peace and supplies to go into Palestine"...it says the Palestinians should live like dogs.

I disagree. Your conclusion of
"Hamas stops firing rockets = Palestinians should live like dogs"
is quite a stretch.

[Undertoad]

Originally Posted by piercehawkeye45

I could find the quote that said that many Gazans are now becoming more supportive of Hamas but here is two other quotes for Fatah supporters.

I find my little Pal girl video more compelling. But at that time you said If you could find a report of the majority of Gazans thinking that Hamas is at fault, then it would devastate my post, but not one out of the millions that live in Gaza.

I was not talking about open criticism. Sources can display certain facts in certain ways to make the situation seem like it happened a certain way. The facts given are not wrong but there is much more than what is seen.

Yeeeah. They're taught in Journalism school never to do this, and then, when asked why they have the cajones to do this, they point to their gravitas because they went to J-school.

You're not supposed to notice. But you're too smart. Now apply critical thinking skills to the problem. When paying attention to the "secondary message" communicated as news, do you get closer to the truth, or further from the truth?

It's a classic SAT question. If the "news" reports, for five days in a row, The Administration today again denied that there had ever been waterboarding used at Guantanamo Bay, do you believe A) There probably was waterboarding at Guantanamo, B) There probably was not waterboarding at Guantanamo, or C) Not enough information to determine?

(Answer: C of course. But it's also a trick question. The people who already believe A will find that the reports confirm their truth. The people who already believe B will find that the reports confirm their truth as well. The same report will be heard as liberal if aired on MSNBC, and conservative if aired on Fox.)

So Islamic papers are saying Hamas won and Jewish papers say Hamas has lost? I don't know the credibilities but what are you trying to point out?

Who to believe. Who to believe. It's a toughie innit.

[piercehawkeye45]

Originally Posted by Undertoad

I find my little Pal girl video more compelling. But at that time you said If you could find a report of the majority of Gazans thinking that Hamas is at fault, then it would devastate my post, but not one out of the millions that live in Gaza.

I made a mistake on my post. I should have wrote, I couldn't find the quote that said that many Gazans are now becoming more supportive of Hamas but here is two other quotes for Fatah supporters.

The quote I couldn't find is somewhere in a 28 page report but I did post a similar quote in the post where I argued against your video. The quote I wanted did actually imply majority while this one does not.

“May God exterminate Hamas!” she screamed, in a curse rarely heard these days. In this conflict, many Palestinians praise Hamas as resisters

The first quote was from an individual, I am aware, but not the second. Stats are not available to determine how large this group is, but there is a group and it seems to have grown since the start of the bombings, or at least they have become more vocal.

Fury is rising here [West Bank] over the war in Gaza, as are support for Hamas and anger with the Palestinian Authority in this city

Originally Posted by Undertoad

do you get closer to the truth, or further from the truth?

Alright, I'll go with you on this. Not to patronize your statement but this is off from my original point. I was saying that popular opinion from around the world has shifted away from Israel on this event. Many disagree with their latest actions. I won't use the word criticize though.

Originally Posted by classicman

I disagree. Your conclusion of
"Hamas stops firing rockets = Palestinians should live like dogs"
is quite a stretch.

I will show the a proof (like a mathematical proof) of how I got there. If you disagree with any part, state it and show me evidence of why you believe the contrary.

1. Hamas/other Palestinian resistant groups stops firing rockets indefinitely
2. Israel stops firing rockets indefinitely
3. Two-State solution appears on current boundaries
4. Palestine's economy not strong enough, has the infrastructure, size, funding, etc to become self-sufficient.
5a. Palestine becomes dependent on foreign aid
5b. Maybe Israel/other Arab countries will open borders for some and they become second class citizens
6. Living like dogs statement

Obviously saying that "Hamas should stop firing rockets" does not mean you wish to see the Palestinians living that way but I am saying if a peace happens in this current scenario, that is what will end up happening. That is why many Palestinians don't want peace at this moment.

As I've said numerous times, things do change and maybe I will be wrong, but looking at the current scenario that proof is strong and will most likely hold.

[xoxoxoBruce]

1. Hamas/other Palestinian resistant groups stops firing rockets indefinitely
2. Israel stops firing rockets indefinitely
3. Two-State solution appears on current boundaries
4. Palestine's economy not strong enough, has the infrastructure, size, funding, etc to become self-sufficient.
5. Palestine becomes dependent on foreign aid
6. While living on foreign aid, without war draining attention and resources, turn to rebuilding their economy and become self sufficient.