View on the recent Gaza/Israel stikes

[Undertoad]

750 trucks per day into Gaza before Hamas was elected. All they have to do is say they want peace and they will become prosperous merely by location. Israel would love to be a partner in peace and prosperity.

They can build missiles or they can build tractors. It's completely up to them.

[TheMercenary]

There is very little that anyone can say positive about Hamas.

[sugarpop]

Originally Posted by Undertoad

Hamas's very charter clearly states that its goal is the destruction of Israel. From Hamas point of view, the cease fire was made so that it could restock its supply of weapons, which it did by sea and through smuggling tunnels.The basic truth is that if Hamas doesn't fight, Israel doesn't fight. Please acknowledge that basic truth.

I have heard that from Israel also, that their goal is the complete destruction of the Palestinian people. The radicals on both sides want mutual destruction. The sad part, there are LOTS of Palestinians, and also Israelis, who truly want peace. I seem to remember when Clinton was office, they were making headway. You seem to want to only blame Hamas, but the Israeli govt has just as much blame. It is the Zionist religion causing problems as much as Hamas.

Again, I really believe we should stop all funding to Israel. I'm hoping President Obama can help broker some kind of peace treaty.

[TheMercenary]

Originally Posted by sugarpop

I have heard that from Israel also, that their goal is the complete destruction of the Palestinian people.

That is not the official stance of the Israeli government. It is the official stance of Hamas, the current government of the Palestinian People. You can't continue to put radical beliefs and statements by minority extremists on the government as a whole.

[sugarpop]

Originally Posted by Undertoad

No no, don't just gloss over that one because it hurts your approach. Think on a straight line here. We proved it by his own words. You now know that he was. This is an important data point.



That's a common notion, what is your proof of it?

The fact that al qaeda has been able to recruit more people than they would have otherwise. That is pretty much agreed upon by most people. Our govt may not have been liked very well before the Iraq war in certain parts of the Middle East, but our credibility in most parts of the ME has since tanked with a majority of the people over there. That isn't saying the people hate us as a people, but they hate our govt's politics with regard to them. We have been meddling in the affairs of Middle Eastern countries for a hundred years. They don't like it. Now we have waged a war against a country that did not attack us. We have used torture and humiliation against their people, many of whom were not really terrorists. We have held people for years, with no access to legal representation or a trial. Those things have done more to help al qaeda than Osama bin Laden could have dreamed of doing on his own.

Can you honestly say that you would not feel hate for another country if they did those things to you or your country?

Then where are the Bosnian terrorists we created?

Where are the Panamanian terrorists we created?

Where are the Grenadan terrorists we created?

Where in holy hell are the Vietnamese terrorists we created? There had better be 500,000 of them, or your narrative is crashing and burning badly.

I wasn't talking about those groups of people. Those situations are very different from the one we are in now. You cannot compare them, it's like comparing apples and oranges.

[Undertoad]

Originally Posted by sugarpop

I have heard that from Israel also, that their goal is the complete destruction of the Palestinian people.

Citation needed

Again, I really believe we should stop all funding to Israel.

The bulk of the aid started, along with military aid to Egypt, during the 1979 peace negotiations. Without the aid, Israel had no motivation to give up the Sinai peninsula, with its oil, and its strategic military positions from which Israel had been attacked several times. But, you know, whatever.

[sugarpop]

Originally Posted by piercehawkeye45

It has been mentioned that Hamas would be willing to accept a two state solution on 1948 (I think??) lines.

It is the pre- 1967 borders, when Israel took over the West Bank and Gaza.

[sugarpop]

Originally Posted by TheMercenary

That is not the official stance of the Israeli government. It is the official stance of Hamas, the current government of the Palestinian People. You can't continue to put radical beliefs and statements by minority extremists on the government as a whole.

There are some extremists in the Israeli govt who want this. Do they all? Probably not. But to think there aren't some is gullible. Zionist thought is to completely take over the country.

[Undertoad]

Originally Posted by sugarpop

The fact that al qaeda has been able to recruit more people than they would have otherwise. That is pretty much agreed upon by most people.

Then you should have no problem finding a citation.

Can you honestly say that you would not feel hate for another country if they did those things to you or your country?

If they did it to my corrupt, terroristic government? Boo fuckin' hoo. If they screwed up the occupation period and allowed my country to be run by thugs? Unacceptable, but if left to pick sides I know where I'm going.

I wasn't talking about those groups of people. Those situations are very different from the one we are in now. You cannot compare them, it's like comparing apples and oranges.

It is not. Situation much worse in Vietnam. We invaded. We waged war. Along they way we burned villages. We screwed up, and it led to the deaths of millions. Where are the Vietnamese terrorists?

Hell, where are the Cambodian terrorists? You google "Cambodian terrorists" and the result is Did you mean: canadian terrorists ...that's bloody hilarious.

[sugarpop]

Originally Posted by Undertoad

Citation needed

It was on Frontline a couple of years ago. I don't remember the name of the program, but you can go online to pbs.org/frontline and watch any of their shows. They are all available online.

The bulk of the aid started, along with military aid to Egypt, during the 1979 peace negotiations. Without the aid, Israel had no motivation to give up the Sinai peninsula, with its oil, and its strategic military positions from which Israel had been attacked several times. But, you know, whatever.

It doesn't matter how it started, I'm talking about the situation now, today. If we quit funding them and started brokering a peace treaty, along with other countries (both Middle Eastern and European), maybe they would be forced to work it out eventually.

[sugarpop]

[quote=Undertoad;529062]Then you should have no problem finding a citation.[quote]

good grief. Do you not watch commentators on news channels? General consensus among many people is we have made terrorism worse, not better. Do all people think that? Of course not. I'm not going to look for citations right now, but if you really want me to I will another time. You could just google it yourself.

If they did it to my corrupt, terroristic government? Boo fuckin' hoo. If they screwed up the occupation period and allowed my country to be run by thugs? Unacceptable, but if left to pick sides I know where I'm going.

Well, we took over the prison where Saddam tortured people, and then we commenced to humiliate and torture the people as well. We have turned their country into a battleground for terrorists for the past 6 years. Thousands of people have been displaced because of us, and over 100,000 have died, many of them children. If we just HAD to go and remove Saddam, then we should have allowed the Iraqi people to have control over their own country and their own destiny, and just stayed to help them rather than to dictate to them and occupy them. Maybe things would have turned out differently, for us and them. But we didn't. We screwed this up in every conceivable way possible.

It is not. Situation much worse in Vietnam. We invaded. We waged war. Along they way we burned villages. We screwed up, and it led to the deaths of millions. Where are the Vietnamese terrorists?

It is the same in that respect. But in every other way it isn't. For one thing, the world is much more global now than it was then. It is much easier for Islamic terrorists to move around now. They are well funded and trained. Islamic terrorist organizations already existed before we invaded Iraq and they had been waging jihad for years before we went in, and they had already attacked us twice, here, and in various other places around the globe, in addition to attacking other western countries. We in turn attacked a country that had nothing to do with the attack against us. The Middle East is an entire region that is connected. We have been meddling in the affairs of the Middle East for decades. We have propped up dictators and supported coups in different countries, and we have supported Israel in their fight against Palestine. We have bases in Saudi Arabia on sacred ground. So, no, it is not at all the same situation.

Hell, where are the Cambodian terrorists? You google "Cambodian terrorists" and the result is Did you mean: canadian terrorists ...that's bloody hilarious.

HA!

[TheMercenary]

Originally Posted by sugarpop

There are some extremists in the Israeli govt who want this. Do they all? Probably not. But to think there aren't some is gullible. Zionist thought is to completely take over the country.

It is not the official policy of the Israeli government. Their solution is the 2 State Solution and they are waiting for Hamas to agree to their right to exist as a country. Extremists and Ziontists do not run the Israeli government nor do they control the Army.

[sugarpop]

Originally Posted by TheMercenary

It is not the official policy of the Israeli government. Their solution is the 2 State Solution and they are waiting for Hamas to agree to their right to exist as a country. Extremists and Ziontists do not run the Israeli government nor do they control the Army.

I have seen more than one documentary/interview with members of Hamas where they have said they would agree to the 2 state solution if Israel agreed to the pre-1967 borders. ummm, lots of members of the Israeli govt are Zionists.

[classicman]

Originally Posted by sugarpop

We screwed this up in every conceivable way possible.

Perhaps not.
Peace rules as polls close in Iraq

# Story Highlights
- NEW: President Obama praises election, says he's "proud" of collaborative efforts
- Preliminary results of provincial elections expected within five days
- Polls close after one-hour extension; no serious violence reported
- "There is a new norm of politics," deputy prime minister says

BAGHDAD, Iraq (CNN) -- Voting ended Saturday evening for Iraqi provincial elections and the mood was festive in some places, unlike the violence, intimidation and apathy that marked the balloting in 2005.
"Politics has broken out in Iraq. ... It's truly a proud moment," Iraqi Deputy Prime Minister Barham Saleh told CNN. "The distance that we have come is truly inspiring."

Only time will tell. Also, the United States did not start a war against the country of Iraq.

[Griff]

Originally Posted by classicman

Only time will tell. Also, the United States did not start a war against the country of Iraq.

Semantics. We killed their people and broke their country. We have some good news don't ruin it with self-deception.