Obama--the grumblings

[Aliantha]

You know, I used to think that society was to blame for some people being stuck in the poor cycle, and to a certain extent I still do, but I've come to believe that some people are just plain stupid. It's not their fault really. They were born that way, and no amount of 'help' from society will ever change the fact that they're stupid.

My biggest challenge is that for those who were born stupid, how far should society be expected to go? Surely it's up to the families of stupid people to take care of them? I feel sorry for stupid people, but not sorry enough to think I should have to support them.

On the other hand, there's a whole bunch of people out there who're pretty damn smart but they insist on using their intelligence for bad instead of good, and get stuck in their cycle, which really just equates to another form of stupidity in my books.

The reason my opinion has changed in this regard is because of my husband. The story of his childhood would curl your toes, and yet he's educated and a leader in his field with a compassionate heart.

If you use your intelligence for good instead of bad, there's nothing you can't do.

[TGRR]

Originally Posted by Aliantha

You know, I used to think that society was to blame for some people being stuck in the poor cycle, and to a certain extent I still do, but I've come to believe that some people are just plain stupid. It's not their fault really. They were born that way, and no amount of 'help' from society will ever change the fact that they're stupid.

My biggest challenge is that for those who were born stupid, how far should society be expected to go? Surely it's up to the families of stupid people to take care of them? I feel sorry for stupid people, but not sorry enough to think I should have to support them.

On the other hand, there's a whole bunch of people out there who're pretty damn smart but they insist on using their intelligence for bad instead of good, and get stuck in their cycle, which really just equates to another form of stupidity in my books.

The reason my opinion has changed in this regard is because of my husband. The story of his childhood would curl your toes, and yet he's educated and a leader in his field with a compassionate heart.

If you use your intelligence for good instead of bad, there's nothing you can't do.

Stupidity is by no means restricted to the poor.

[sugarpop]

Originally Posted by Aliantha

You know, I used to think that society was to blame for some people being stuck in the poor cycle, and to a certain extent I still do, but I've come to believe that some people are just plain stupid. It's not their fault really. They were born that way, and no amount of 'help' from society will ever change the fact that they're stupid.

My biggest challenge is that for those who were born stupid, how far should society be expected to go? Surely it's up to the families of stupid people to take care of them? I feel sorry for stupid people, but not sorry enough to think I should have to support them.

On the other hand, there's a whole bunch of people out there who're pretty damn smart but they insist on using their intelligence for bad instead of good, and get stuck in their cycle, which really just equates to another form of stupidity in my books.

The reason my opinion has changed in this regard is because of my husband. The story of his childhood would curl your toes, and yet he's educated and a leader in his field with a compassionate heart.

If you use your intelligence for good instead of bad, there's nothing you can't do.

There are plenty of poor people who are smart, but they couldn't escape the trap of poverty (and it is a trap, for many people, no matter how hard they try to get out).

Not all people who succeed do so because they are intelligent. Many of them succeed because they are corrupt, unethical, and immoral, and they prey on people.

As far as, how far should society go to support poor people, I think as long as we keep making rules and laws that only apply to certain segments of society or are applied differently to rich people, then it is our obligation as a society to take care of the people who don't have a chance. Personally, I really believe there is no reason why we can't end poverty. The problem is greed. Some people just think they entitled to more than others. I think it is really obscene that in a so called "civilized" society, one man could have many billions of dollars while there are people starving and living in cars. It's just, wrong.

[TGRR]

Originally Posted by sugarpop

There are plenty of poor people who are smart, but they couldn't escape the trap of poverty (and it is a trap, for many people, no matter how hard they try to get out).

Not all people who succeed do so because they are intelligent. Many of them succeed because they are corrupt, unethical, and immoral, and they prey on people.

As far as, how far should society go to support poor people, I think as long as we keep making rules and laws that only apply to certain segments of society or are applied differently to rich people, then it is our obligation as a society to take care of the people who don't have a chance. Personally, I really believe there is no reason why we can't end poverty. The problem is greed. Some people just think they entitled to more than others. I think it is really obscene that in a so called "civilized" society, one man could have many billions of dollars while there are people starving and living in cars. It's just, wrong.

[Edit out serious answer]

Shut up, hippie.

TGRR,
Getting into the swing of things.

[Aliantha]

Originally Posted by sugarpop

There are plenty of poor people who are smart, but they couldn't escape the trap of poverty (and it is a trap, for many people, no matter how hard they try to get out).

Not all people who succeed do so because they are intelligent. Many of them succeed because they are corrupt, unethical, and immoral, and they prey on people.

As far as, how far should society go to support poor people, I think as long as we keep making rules and laws that only apply to certain segments of society or are applied differently to rich people, then it is our obligation as a society to take care of the people who don't have a chance. Personally, I really believe there is no reason why we can't end poverty. The problem is greed. Some people just think they entitled to more than others. I think it is really obscene that in a so called "civilized" society, one man could have many billions of dollars while there are people starving and living in cars. It's just, wrong.

So do you not agree that there is a segment of society who live poorly because they've made bad decision - sometimes by way of stupidity - or simply because they don't try very hard to improve their lot in life?

While I agree that in some ways and from some perspectives, the distribution of wealth is inequitable, I just can't help but open my eyes to the fact that a lot of poor people needn't be poor.

Take Australia for example. There's really no reason why anyone should live below the poverty line considering we have a pretty good welfare system in place, and yet somehow there are people who can't get their shit together enough to use the help that's available to them.* I'm not saying our system is perfect, but it's a pretty good safety net for those who choose to take advantage of it.

*Issues of mental health come into this point, along with alcoholism and other addictive behaviours. Those are social problems which I believe we are all responsible for in some ways, but not all.

[sugarpop]

Originally Posted by Aliantha

So do you not agree that there is a segment of society who live poorly because they've made bad decision - sometimes by way of stupidity - or simply because they don't try very hard to improve their lot in life?

While I agree that in some ways and from some perspectives, the distribution of wealth is inequitable, I just can't help but open my eyes to the fact that a lot of poor people needn't be poor.

Take Australia for example. There's really no reason why anyone should live below the poverty line considering we have a pretty good welfare system in place, and yet somehow there are people who can't get their shit together enough to use the help that's available to them.* I'm not saying our system is perfect, but it's a pretty good safety net for those who choose to take advantage of it.

*Issues of mental health come into this point, along with alcoholism and other addictive behaviours. Those are social problems which I believe we are all responsible for in some ways, but not all.

Well see, I would say addictive behaviors are personal responsibilty. yes, addictions are real, it is a real disease. And some people really do have serious problems dealing with their addictions. I know, I was sober for over 15 years. Now I drink wine and beer, but I rarely have more than 1 or 2 at a time. I couldn't have done that years ago when I got sober, but now I can, because I've learned how to curb that impulse.

The mental health system in this country is horrible. Reagan deregulated the system when he was president, and a whole lot of people ended up on the street. It is almost impossible to help someone who doesn't think they need help (and when do they ever?), unless they are an obvious danger. Hell, that guy in VA a few years ago who shot a whole bunch of people at a University had been on the radar for YEARS. People knew he was dangerous, yet he was still out in public and managed to buy a gun and ammunition. He should have been locked away and on medication.

You are lucky because Australia also has a pretty damn good health care system, from what I've heard and read. Here, health insurance has become so friggin' expensive many, many people can't afford it, and while we do have medicaid for poor people, many doctors won't take medicaid. I believe those costs have contributed to the cycle of poverty. Everything is connected.

The education system here sucks for poor people. It really is not equal in any sense. That contributes a LOT to poverty. And violence. There is a lot of violence and crime in poor neighborhoods. That also contributes to the cycle. Can people overcome that? Yes, but it is really unrealistic to think that all or most or even many poor people could overcome poverty in the system we have in place here. There just aren't enough jobs that pay well, and college is getting more expensive. And many skilled labor jobs now go to illegals, not Americans or legal immigrants, because they work for a lot less and don't complain, because they are illegal. In fact, that is happening now in white collar jobs as well. And the pay is getting worse for most people, unless you happen to be at the top.

Some people do work their ass off, and are good workers, but still have to work more than one job just to survive. It's obscene that a corporation can lay people off and cut benefits of other workers while paying lavish salaries and bonuses to the people at the top, even while losing money. That is happening more and more in this country. And in Australia, I have to wonder what the difference is in compensation rates. "American executive compensation rates are quite different from those of the rest of the developed world. In Japan a typical executive makes eleven times what a typical worker brings home; in Britain, 22 times. In America," it is almost 500 times, probably more now, because the link is from 2006. http://www.pbs.org/now/politics/executivepay.html (click on the icon of facts and figures.)

Do some people make stupid decisions and end up in bad situations? Yes. Look at what happened with the housing market here. Do rich pricks cause more damage than people making stupid mistakes? Yes, look at the world economy.

I would ask you to read Jonathan Kozol to better understand how it really works in this country. Here are links to information about him and his books: http://www.learntoquestion.com/seeva...E/homepage.htm

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/jonath...l_b_63622.html

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jonathan_Kozol

[TheMercenary]

Originally Posted by Aliantha

So do you not agree that there is a segment of society who live poorly because they've made bad decision - sometimes by way of stupidity - or simply because they don't try very hard to improve their lot in life?

While I agree that in some ways and from some perspectives, the distribution of wealth is inequitable, I just can't help but open my eyes to the fact that a lot of poor people needn't be poor.

Take Australia for example. There's really no reason why anyone should live below the poverty line considering we have a pretty good welfare system in place, and yet somehow there are people who can't get their shit together enough to use the help that's available to them.* I'm not saying our system is perfect, but it's a pretty good safety net for those who choose to take advantage of it.

*Issues of mental health come into this point, along with alcoholism and other addictive behaviours. Those are social problems which I believe we are all responsible for in some ways, but not all.

I think a better description might be that less educated people tend to be poor, rather than just stupid. More educated people tend not to be poor. I have found that often bad decisions that people make often lead to more bad decisions and things spiral down from there. People get stuck in that rut and can't get out. I think you hit the nail on the head with mental health issues, drugs, ETOH, etc.

[Aliantha]

Originally Posted by TheMercenary

I think a better description might be that less educated people tend to be poor, rather than just stupid. More educated people tend not to be poor. I have found that often bad decisions that people make often lead to more bad decisions and things spiral down from there. People get stuck in that rut and can't get out. I think you hit the nail on the head with mental health issues, drugs, ETOH, etc.

So with that in mind, do you think that the source of the problem is really in the education of our children? If children have better access to a decent education, they'll make better decisions and get out of the rut their parents are in?

While I think that yes we do need to look closely at education and ways to improve systems across the board both in private and public sectors, I don't think that's the only answer. It needs to be a multi-pronged approach and of course we could discuss those issues all day and come no closer to solving the problem.

I do believe that ultimately, there will always be poor people, and there'll always be rich people, and there'll always be the rest of us who sit somewhere in between. I think this is how societies based on capitalism work and always will work, and even though here in Australia we have more government monitoring, we're still a capitalist society in many ways, so will always be subject to the same problems although perhaps to a lesser degree than in the US in some ways.

[TheMercenary]

Originally Posted by Aliantha

So with that in mind, do you think that the source of the problem is really in the education of our children? If children have better access to a decent education, they'll make better decisions and get out of the rut their parents are in?

While I think that yes we do need to look closely at education and ways to improve systems across the board both in private and public sectors, I don't think that's the only answer. It needs to be a multi-pronged approach and of course we could discuss those issues all day and come no closer to solving the problem.

I do believe that ultimately, there will always be poor people, and there'll always be rich people, and there'll always be the rest of us who sit somewhere in between. I think this is how societies based on capitalism work and always will work, and even though here in Australia we have more government monitoring, we're still a capitalist society in many ways, so will always be subject to the same problems although perhaps to a lesser degree than in the US in some ways.

I think most people have be praying that the solution was to provide better education to the poor kids. So far we can't even do that effectively. It would be a hard thing to measure. We shouldn's stop trying.

[sugarpop]

Originally Posted by TheMercenary

I think most people have be praying that the solution was to provide better education to the poor kids. So far we can't even do that effectively. It would be a hard thing to measure. We shouldn's stop trying.

Public education used to be pretty good here. Now, even some of the private schools suck. It's appalling to me how ignorant and uninformed some of the younger people are in this country. We don't even make the top 25 list anymore. It's really sad.