Torture memos

Undertoad · 04-17-2009, 10:53 AM

Interrogation techniques approved in 2002 by the Justice Department and detailed in memos released Thursday:

http://www.usatoday.com/news/washing...boarding_N.htm

Attention grasp: "Grasping the individual with both hands, one hand on each side of the collar opening, in a controlled and quick motion."

Walling: A fake, flexible wall is built, and the suspect is pulled forward and "then quickly and firmly" pushed against the wall. "The idea is to create a sound that will make the impact seem far worse than it is."

Facial grasp: "Used to hold the head immobile. One open palm is placed on either side of the individual's face."

Insult slap: "The purpose of the facial slap is to induce shock, surprise and/or humiliation."

Cramped confinement: The suspect is placed in a confined space that "is usually dark." Some spaces allow a subject only to sit down; confinement in those spaces "lasts for no more than two hours."

Wall standing: Subjects are forced to lean with only their fingers for support against a wall 4 to 5 feet away from their bodies in a tactic "used to induce muscle fatigue."

Stress positions: They include "kneeling on the floor while leaning back at a 45-degree angle" and "sitting on the floor with legs extended out in front of him with his arms raised above his head."

Sleep deprivation: This is meant to "reduce the individual's ability to think on his feet and, through the discomfort associated with lack of sleep, to motivate him to cooperate."

Insects placed in a confinement box: The subject is placed in "a cramped confinement box" and told a stinging insect will be placed in the box with him. Instead, a harmless insect, "such as a caterpillar," is placed inside.

Waterboarding: The subject is placed on a board with a cloth covering his nose and mouth. The cloth is saturated with water to simulate drowning. It creates "the perception of 'suffocation and incipient panic.' "

- 28 CIA detainees were subject to some of these methods
- Caution was made that doing them in tandem would be a violation
- They put one guy in a box with a bug
- Sleep deprivation seems the worst to me - could last up to 180 hours

So I guess my question is, waitaminute, WTF? I'd cross off waterboarding and sleep deprivation, but you're not allowed to slap the guy now? Really? This is what it's going to come to? A known terrorist who has good information about other terrorists, and if you slap him you'll be put in jail?

If putting bugs near a guy is torture, I was brutally tortured regularly when I was 10.

lookout123 · 04-17-2009, 11:49 AM

While some of them are just goofy and would be difficult to use in reality, there is nothing on that list I have a problem with. Yeah, that includes waterboarding.

Pico and ME · 04-17-2009, 11:55 AM

I dont have a problem with it if they are being used on a known terrorist. I wonder if we actually followed that guideline though.

classicman · 04-17-2009, 12:01 PM

I dunno about all of this. I mixed feelings/opinions. - What is acceptable as a means of interrogating an alleged or known terrorist now? If all posted above is removed, then what is left?

xoxoxoBruce · 04-18-2009, 05:23 AM

Half of them would fall under, "First you gotta get their attention".

TheMercenary · 04-18-2009, 05:57 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by classicman

I dunno about all of this. I mixed feelings/opinions. - What is acceptable as a means of interrogating an alleged or known terrorist now? If all posted above is removed, then what is left?

Soft Cushions and The Comfy Chair! No one expects The Spanish Inquisition !

DanaC · 04-18-2009, 06:03 AM

What worries me, is that in heightened situations and environments, there is often something of a gap between the details as they appear in the rules and the details as they are applied in the territory. An extra hour or three in a stress position. An extra night or three of sleep deprivation.

Very little of what I have seen, heard and read, suggests that these limitations were being vigorously applied, nor that interrogations were subject to sufficient oversight to ensure those limitations weren't 'stretched'.

Is 'slapping' allowed under the geneva convention? Is it allowed in police interrogations? Either these men are soldiers or they're criminals. If slapping and sleep deprivation are allowed for either military prisoners, or suspects in a crime then I see no reason not to allow it for alleged terrorists. If it isn't allowed in either of those situations then I see no reason to allow it in this.

Another point worth making is that these things may have a very different psychological effect on day 3 than they might on day 1003. Many of the men held in Guantanamo have spent years there. It's been suggested that interrogations may happen at any time throughout that internment. Bear in mind the entire system of internment there has been designed to destabilise and weaken the resolve of the inmate. After a couple of years of dehumanising imprisonment (without any end in sight, with no recourse to legal process, and the increasing suspicion that if you die there, nobody will be doing an autopsy to find out how...) sleep deprivation, slapping and confinement in small boxes, or physically stressful positions would more than likely take on a whole other level of meaning.

Now...given that we really cannot be sure of their guilt without some kind of trial, I am very uncomfortable about allowing a prisoner to be systematically broken across several years.

Undertoad · 04-18-2009, 07:17 AM

Quote:

Very little of what I have seen, heard and read, suggests that these limitations were being vigorously applied, nor that interrogations were subject to sufficient oversight to ensure those limitations weren't 'stretched'.

But jeez, how would you know? It depends on the credibility of the terrorists' lawyers.

DanaC · 04-18-2009, 07:48 AM

Good point Toad

(lol).

TheMercenary · 04-18-2009, 09:05 AM

I know one thing. If I was caught and guilty of such acts of whatever I would stand up and loudly exclaim that I was tortured and say whatever I could to discredit whom ever imprisoned me, esp if I know that much of the world was jumping on my band wagon, whether it was true or not. I would milk that for all it was worth, and a good lawyer would do the same. I mean think about it, the dude guilty of shooting some other dude for a rock of crack on the street corner certainly stands up in court and says, "Yes your honor, I am absolutely guilty." The advantage these guys have is they have never gone to court. Their court is the court of public opinion, half-truths, and outright lies by both parties.

DanaC · 04-18-2009, 09:10 AM

Well. Except they didn't get to speak in that court for a fuck of a long time. They were busy living in x-ray cells for upwards of five years. I saw an interview with the guy they released recently and allowed to come back to Britain. Maybe he's a good actor. But he looked like he'd been well and truly shattered.

TheMercenary · 04-18-2009, 10:01 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DanaC

Well. Except they didn't get to speak in that court for a fuck of a long time. They were busy living in x-ray cells for upwards of five years. I saw an interview with the guy they released recently and allowed to come back to Britain. Maybe he's a good actor. But he looked like he'd been well and truly shattered.

I have no doubt. It was not designed to be a holiday. Some of them surely got what they deserved, some not so much. Because of the way it was handled from the outset we will never know the truth. I believe that some are being released becase the risk benifit ratio of releasing info the government wants to keep secret is not worth the risk of a public show trial. Who knows. I certainly am going to look at anyone who has been locked up there for 5 years with a certain degree of bias as a source of information as to what really went on there. Until people who were directly involved from the government side start to talk about it publically as in the form of some kind of expose I don't think we will ever know. In these situations we need a balance of information to make up our minds about what we are going to believe.

As I have said many times I am all for closing it up next week and sending every party back to their country of origin whether they want them or not and regardless of their eventual fate. Leave it.

lumberjim · 04-18-2009, 10:22 AM

Teabagging-the victim is made to lie on his back, with his mouth agape. the fattest smelliest, unbathed troll on base then dangles his bawls into the open mouth ...for no more than 2 hours.

Butt Cheek Taping: The victim's butt cheeks are taped together with high grade duct tape. the tape is left on for no more than 180 hours, and is then removed briskly.

Jill · 04-18-2009, 10:26 AM

I wonder if John McCain thinks he was tortured. Perhaps he was just put in "stress positions".

Meursault · 04-18-2009, 10:35 AM

i just wanna know why beheading isnt on that list

04-17-2009, 10:53 AM	#1
Undertoad Radical Centrist Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: Cottage of Prussia Posts: 31,423	Torture memos Interrogation techniques approved in 2002 by the Justice Department and detailed in memos released Thursday: http://www.usatoday.com/news/washing...boarding_N.htm Attention grasp: "Grasping the individual with both hands, one hand on each side of the collar opening, in a controlled and quick motion." Walling: A fake, flexible wall is built, and the suspect is pulled forward and "then quickly and firmly" pushed against the wall. "The idea is to create a sound that will make the impact seem far worse than it is." Facial grasp: "Used to hold the head immobile. One open palm is placed on either side of the individual's face." Insult slap: "The purpose of the facial slap is to induce shock, surprise and/or humiliation." Cramped confinement: The suspect is placed in a confined space that "is usually dark." Some spaces allow a subject only to sit down; confinement in those spaces "lasts for no more than two hours." Wall standing: Subjects are forced to lean with only their fingers for support against a wall 4 to 5 feet away from their bodies in a tactic "used to induce muscle fatigue." Stress positions: They include "kneeling on the floor while leaning back at a 45-degree angle" and "sitting on the floor with legs extended out in front of him with his arms raised above his head." Sleep deprivation: This is meant to "reduce the individual's ability to think on his feet and, through the discomfort associated with lack of sleep, to motivate him to cooperate." Insects placed in a confinement box: The subject is placed in "a cramped confinement box" and told a stinging insect will be placed in the box with him. Instead, a harmless insect, "such as a caterpillar," is placed inside. Waterboarding: The subject is placed on a board with a cloth covering his nose and mouth. The cloth is saturated with water to simulate drowning. It creates "the perception of 'suffocation and incipient panic.' " - 28 CIA detainees were subject to some of these methods - Caution was made that doing them in tandem would be a violation - They put one guy in a box with a bug - Sleep deprivation seems the worst to me - could last up to 180 hours So I guess my question is, waitaminute, WTF? I'd cross off waterboarding and sleep deprivation, but you're not allowed to slap the guy now? Really? This is what it's going to come to? A known terrorist who has good information about other terrorists, and if you slap him you'll be put in jail? If putting bugs near a guy is torture, I was brutally tortured regularly when I was 10.

04-17-2009, 11:49 AM	#2
lookout123 changed his status to single Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: Right behind you. No, the other side. Posts: 10,308	While some of them are just goofy and would be difficult to use in reality, there is nothing on that list I have a problem with. Yeah, that includes waterboarding. __________________ Getting knocked down is no sin, it's not getting back up that's the sin

04-17-2009, 12:01 PM	#4
classicman barely disguised asshole, keeper of all that is holy. Join Date: Nov 2007 Posts: 23,401	I dunno about all of this. I mixed feelings/opinions. - What is acceptable as a means of interrogating an alleged or known terrorist now? If all posted above is removed, then what is left? __________________ "like strapping a pillow on a bull in a china shop" Bullitt

04-18-2009, 05:23 AM	#5
xoxoxoBruce The future is unwritten Join Date: Oct 2002 Posts: 71,105	Half of them would fall under, "First you gotta get their attention". __________________ The descent of man ~ Nixon, Friedman, Reagan, Trump.

04-18-2009, 09:05 AM	#10
TheMercenary “Hypocrisy: prejudice with a halo” Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: Savannah, Georgia Posts: 21,393	I know one thing. If I was caught and guilty of such acts of whatever I would stand up and loudly exclaim that I was tortured and say whatever I could to discredit whom ever imprisoned me, esp if I know that much of the world was jumping on my band wagon, whether it was true or not. I would milk that for all it was worth, and a good lawyer would do the same. I mean think about it, the dude guilty of shooting some other dude for a rock of crack on the street corner certainly stands up in court and says, "Yes your honor, I am absolutely guilty." The advantage these guys have is they have never gone to court. Their court is the court of public opinion, half-truths, and outright lies by both parties. __________________ Anyone but the this most fuked up President in History in 2012!

04-17-2009, 11:55 AM	#3
Pico and ME Are you knock-kneed? Join Date: Jul 2008 Location: Middle Hoosierland Posts: 3,549	I dont have a problem with it if they are being used on a known terrorist. I wonder if we actually followed that guideline though.

04-18-2009, 06:03 AM	#7
DanaC We have to go back, Kate! Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: Yorkshire Posts: 25,964	What worries me, is that in heightened situations and environments, there is often something of a gap between the details as they appear in the rules and the details as they are applied in the territory. An extra hour or three in a stress position. An extra night or three of sleep deprivation. Very little of what I have seen, heard and read, suggests that these limitations were being vigorously applied, nor that interrogations were subject to sufficient oversight to ensure those limitations weren't 'stretched'. Is 'slapping' allowed under the geneva convention? Is it allowed in police interrogations? Either these men are soldiers or they're criminals. If slapping and sleep deprivation are allowed for either military prisoners, or suspects in a crime then I see no reason not to allow it for alleged terrorists. If it isn't allowed in either of those situations then I see no reason to allow it in this. Another point worth making is that these things may have a very different psychological effect on day 3 than they might on day 1003. Many of the men held in Guantanamo have spent years there. It's been suggested that interrogations may happen at any time throughout that internment. Bear in mind the entire system of internment there has been designed to destabilise and weaken the resolve of the inmate. After a couple of years of dehumanising imprisonment (without any end in sight, with no recourse to legal process, and the increasing suspicion that if you die there, nobody will be doing an autopsy to find out how...) sleep deprivation, slapping and confinement in small boxes, or physically stressful positions would more than likely take on a whole other level of meaning. Now...given that we really cannot be sure of their guilt without some kind of trial, I am very uncomfortable about allowing a prisoner to be systematically broken across several years.

04-18-2009, 07:48 AM	#9
DanaC We have to go back, Kate! Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: Yorkshire Posts: 25,964	Good point Toad (lol).

04-18-2009, 09:10 AM	#11
DanaC We have to go back, Kate! Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: Yorkshire Posts: 25,964	Well. Except they didn't get to speak in that court for a fuck of a long time. They were busy living in x-ray cells for upwards of five years. I saw an interview with the guy they released recently and allowed to come back to Britain. Maybe he's a good actor. But he looked like he'd been well and truly shattered.

04-18-2009, 10:22 AM	#13
lumberjim I can hear my ears Join Date: Oct 2003 Posts: 25,571	Teabagging-the victim is made to lie on his back, with his mouth agape. the fattest smelliest, unbathed troll on base then dangles his bawls into the open mouth ...for no more than 2 hours. Butt Cheek Taping: The victim's butt cheeks are taped together with high grade duct tape. the tape is left on for no more than 180 hours, and is then removed briskly. __________________ This body holding me reminds me of my own mortality Embrace this moment, remember We are eternal, all this pain is an illusion ~MJKeenan

04-18-2009, 10:26 AM	#14
Jill Colonist Extraordinaire Join Date: Mar 2009 Location: Redondo Beach, CA (transplant from St. Louis, MO) Posts: 218	I wonder if John McCain thinks he was tortured. Perhaps he was just put in "stress positions".

04-18-2009, 10:35 AM	#15
Meursault Cantankerous Incantonator Join Date: Apr 2009 Location: n tx Posts: 56	i just wanna know why beheading isnt on that list __________________ Please exercise caution --costume mask and chest plate are not protective; cape does not enable wearer to fly.

Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)