Cap and Trade

[TheMercenary]

Originally Posted by Alluvial

Seriously, though. What's the intent that they put on paper, the justification?

They have benchmarks for reducing carbon emissions. 2020 and 2050. The plan is to curb greenhouse gas emissions and create an energy-efficient economy. It is all smoke and mirrors which will cost billions of dollars and have little to no effect on the environment. One of the biggest failure, and I have mentioned this numerous times, is that the other countries in the world are doing nothing, China and India have no such constraints and are not particpating in any such Cap and Trade regulations. Europe has no such regulations which use this process. They will continue with unregulated growth to secure their economic futures. We, on the otherhand will be spending billions if not trillions. And guess what, you are going to pay for it.

[Alluvial]

Originally Posted by TheMercenary

They have benchmarks for reducing carbon emissions. 2020 and 2050. The plan is to curb greenhouse gas emissions and create an energy-efficient economy.

Please forgive my ignorance, and thanks for your post. So, the regulations are going to tighten down on the emissions. Is that supposed to have two effects: one being reduced emissions and the other being industry seeking out other energy sources?

I'm wondering if this is supposed to be like carrot-and-stick without the carrot. Are we going to beat Big Industry until it switches to green energy? I just can't quite wrap my head around the logic (maybe there isn't any).

I've read the arguments about China et. al. and I certainly see the point. Isn't that what has played out already ... for example, some other countries don't have the strict environmental rules that the US does, so their products are cheaper?

I don't think we need to be totally lax about environmental issues but I think this is a bad bill, for several reasons.

I swear, just when you think one party is more st00pid than the other, they up and surprise ya.

ETA: yeah, I understood the part about the cost working its way down to the consumer.

[TheMercenary]

Originally Posted by Alluvial

Please forgive my ignorance, and thanks for your post. So, the regulations are going to tighten down on the emissions. Is that supposed to have two effects: one being reduced emissions and the other being industry seeking out other energy sources?

I'm wondering if this is supposed to be like carrot-and-stick without the carrot. Are we going to beat Big Industry until it switches to green energy? I just can't quite wrap my head around the logic (maybe there isn't any).

I've read the arguments about China et. al. and I certainly see the point. Isn't that what has played out already ... for example, some other countries don't have the strict environmental rules that the US does, so their products are cheaper?

I don't think we need to be totally lax about environmental issues but I think this is a bad bill, for several reasons.

I swear, just when you think one party is more st00pid than the other, they up and surprise ya.

ETA: yeah, I understood the part about the cost working its way down to the consumer.

It allows companies who have lots of money to buy the abiltiy to pollute more from companies who have less money and pollution credits.

I certainly support the investment and encouragement of green energy and renewable sources. But right now they are not really fully developed. I would rather put more money into the research than hammering industry and the consumer with taxes to force compliance.

[sugarpop]

Originally Posted by TheMercenary

It allows companies who have lots of money to buy the abiltiy to pollute more from companies who have less money and pollution credits.

I certainly support the investment and encouragement of green energy and renewable sources. But right now they are not really fully developed. I would rather put more money into the research than hammering industry and the consumer with taxes to force compliance.

And that in itself is incredibly shortsighted and STUPID. Do they honestly think speculaters won't find a way to get rich while screwing the rest of the country if they TRADE pollution credits? And it fucking really pisses me off that someone could just buy their way into polluting as much they want.

[sugarpop]

I watched this show called Eco-Tech (on the Science Network) a few weeks ago about new alternative energy. Merc, it most definitely is developed, maybe not completely-all technology changes as innovation develops-but it is proven enough to start building the plants.

Apparently in South Florida, they have been developing turbines that will work under water, and are slated to be put in sometime over the next year or two. They are developing them to have the least impact on marine life. They are also looking at pumping the cold water from the bottom of the ocean to help cool all the waterfront condos and hotels. They think they can supply all the energy needs of the state with this technology.

There was a meeting here recently to look at putting wind turbines off the coast in the ocean. Apparently Tybee is looking good for something like that.

In Spain, they have built a solar tower, and plan to build a few more, that will power the whole city of Seville, or 600,000 people.

And there is another city, I believe it is Norway, where almost the whole place is powered by alternative energy sources, including solar, and in a place where there isn't all that much sun.

There is a man in Chicago who has devloped wind turbines that can be used in urban areas. They work very well on top of tall buildings, and high winds are not a problem like they would be with regular turbines. They are already working with the cities of Chicago and New York to use these to help power certain buildings, and they have a contract with India as well. Here is the company... http://www.aerotecture.com/ Here is another company supplying small wind turbines... http://www.mariahpower.com/

There is a man who has developed a very thin plastic that works as a solar collector. It might very well one day be used on roof tiles or in window shades to help power your house. (I'll supply the link later. I apparently don't have it saved in my favorites section and I will have to find the page where I wrote it down.)

They talked about a lot more. You really should check out the show when it comes on again.

I also watched an episode of Futurecar, called "the fuels," and apparantly Norway is already building a hydrogen highway. They have figured out how to supply hydrogen at the pump. They have designed cars that might one day power your house. It really is amazing.

All these other countries are so far ahead of us it really is very sad. We think we are the best. We think we are so damn smart. We aren't. We are actually very, very foolish, because we just allow corporations to mandate how we live.

[Alluvial]

Originally Posted by sugarpop

All these other countries are so far ahead of us it really is very sad.

To be fair, there are many technological advances being developed in the U.S. that everyday people aren't aware of, such as the water turbine you mention.