Vaccination & epidemic

[Clodfobble]

Originally Posted by Undertoad

Precisely. That's success in the system. In the long run truth will out.

Don't take my word for it. You can see it working. We know more and more, we understand more and more, even just in the last 20 years. Cancer now no longer the terrible death sentence. HIV now no longer the terrible death sentence. Major mental illnesses, now highly treatable. Tremendous progress in surgery, now making dangerous operations routine and cutting hospital stays from weeks into days.

The system you criticize is the same system that produces those results.

Sorry this is so disjointed, my vaccine-injured child is having a bad day and is being very distracting.

Here's my problem with this attitude: you have set yourself up to always be right. If there is no evidence of falsehood yet, well clearly it's because science is on the right track. If it turns out there is evidence of falsehood, well then we found it because the system worked, you're right again!

The system only works because individual people speak up when they see falsehoods being perpetrated. It works in cases like these because of people like me, not because of people like you. The system will cease to work if I just sit back quietly and wait for it to magically work on its own.

[DanaC]

Originally Posted by Clodfobble

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The system only works because individual people speak up when they see falsehoods being perpetrated. It works in cases like these because of people like me, not because of people like you. The system will cease to work if I just sit back quietly and wait for it to magically work on its own.

Well said Clod.

Right now, I remain unconvinced by either side of the debate. Because neither side has fully proved its position. That, to me, is a reason for more, not less, investigation. Especially as one side appears to be severely handicapped by a lack of investment and support for further study.

[Undertoad]

Originally Posted by Clodfobble

Here's my problem with this attitude: you have set yourself up to always be right. If there is no evidence of falsehood yet, well clearly it's because science is on the right track. If it turns out there is evidence of falsehood, well then we found it because the system worked, you're right again!

By the very same reasoning, you have set yourself up to always be wrong. If there is no evidence of falsehood yet, it's because the right criticisms of the studies haven't been found. If there IS evidence of falsehood, well then OMG FOUL SYSTEM BROKEN!

The system only works because individual people speak up when they see falsehoods being perpetrated.

I agree but only where we determine "falsehoods" though careful, diligent study using the scientific method. The system works because competing theories add or override the body of work of previous study.

It works in cases like these because of people like me, not because of people like you. The system will cease to work if I just sit back quietly and wait for it to magically work on its own.

In the late 80s-early 90s there was a group of docs who came to believe that AIDS was not caused by HIV. They honestly believed the AIDS-HIV link was a "falsehood". They had theories. They published. They were angry as hell that they could not find traction. They blamed it on funding and bias and culture and "the system", etc.

The scientific community came to reject their ideas on scientific bases. Today AIDS is no longer a death sentence because HIV positive people have their HIV levels controlled. Those other docs were completely wrong. Did the life-saving treatment come about because those doctors had a competing pet theory? No. It came about because the scholarship system looked at them, figured out they were full of it, and proceeded to develop other medical knowledge until the problem was solved.

When you find yourself in disagreement with a lot of the rest of the vaccine-skeptical Autism community, what basis will you use to determine that you are right and they are wrong? How do you KNOW you are right? How do you know what you know? What is your epistemology?

(my god i have not had so much fun composing Cellar posts in a while... thanks clod)