Ice on the moon a "game-changer"

[dar512]

Originally Posted by xoxoxoBruce

It's only useful if we're there. The question remains, what the fuck are we doing there? Whatever it is, it's got to be uber expensive/difficult/dangerous, so what's the payback, other than satisfying someone's curiosity?

And couldn't that money/effort be better used right here on Earth?

At some point in time, the neighbor of your ancestors said the same thing to one of your ancestors before they left for the New World.

We're still benefiting from the 60s space program - better electronics, materials etc. We don't know just how much we'd learn from going to the moon -- that's one of the reasons to go.

The space program is a tiny fraction of the US budget. And it pays off in many ways. I think it's worth it even if the only payoff is the satisfaction of having done it.

[Shawnee123]

I agree dar! You said it better than I could have. I was thinking along those lines, about pioneers, but couldn't put it into words.

[xoxoxoBruce]

Originally Posted by dar512

At some point in time, the neighbor of your ancestors said the same thing to one of your ancestors before they left for the New World.

Strawman. :p

We're still benefiting from the 60s space program - better electronics, materials etc. We don't know just how much we'd learn from going to the moon -- that's one of the reasons to go.

tw already exploded that myth. And Tang was around before the space program.

The space program is a tiny fraction of the US budget. And it pays off in many ways. I think it's worth it even if the only payoff is the satisfaction of having done it.

Satisfaction? We've already done it, I'm already satisfied.
We've seen enough, and without sending people there, can find out more than we need to know about the moon. The only reason to go back is to exploit it, mine it. But there's nothing there we can't get here... cheaper. There's no environment there, we can't duplicate here... cheaper.
This is nothing but a giant, expensive, dangerous, ego stroking, for a few space geeks.
Don't think so? How many people watched the last half dozen Gemini shots on TV?

[regular.joe]

Originally Posted by dar512

At some point in time, the neighbor of your ancestors said the same thing to one of your ancestors before they left for the New World.

We're still benefiting from the 60s space program - better electronics, materials etc. We don't know just how much we'd learn from going to the moon -- that's one of the reasons to go.

The space program is a tiny fraction of the US budget. And it pays off in many ways. I think it's worth it even if the only payoff is the satisfaction of having done it.

Yea, I think I remember reading about a similar conversation between Columbus and Queen Isabelle.

[Shawnee123]

Well, I can tell you who won't be invited to my dome-warming party.

[dar512]

Originally Posted by xoxoxoBruce

Strawman. :p

The word you're looking for is 'analogy'.

Originally Posted by xoxoxoBruce

tw already exploded that myth. And Tang was around before the space program.

I must have missed that bit of tw-ism. Yes, both Tang and transistors were around before the space program took off. It was the pressure of the space program that refined them.

Originally Posted by xoxoxoBruce

We've seen enough, and without sending people there, can find out more than we need to know about the moon. The only reason to go back is to exploit it, mine it. But there's nothing there we can't get here... cheaper. There's no environment there, we can't duplicate here... cheaper.
This is nothing but a giant, expensive, dangerous, ego stroking, for a few space geeks.

So your next vacation you'll be sending a legobot? Think it'll be just as good as going yourself?

I'm not saying the unmanned exploration is useless. But I certainly don't see it as a permanent substitute for on-site exploration.

I think mankind needs a frontier. It would be sad if we gave up on space exploration.

[tw]

Originally Posted by dar512

I must have missed that bit of tw-ism. Yes, both Tang and transistors were around before the space program took off. It was the pressure of the space program that refined them.

Maybe you should work in aerospace before assuming something. What kind of electronics go into space craft? Only stuff that has existed long ago. In satellites, only electronics that would no longer appear in any desktop or laptop is used. The old stuff.

What microprocessor is controls the Martian Rovers? 8086. Technology of the original IBM PC. Used in space are electronics that were long first refined in earth applications.

What did the shuttle use for its five major computers? Core memory. Iron rings. Semiconductors were introduced much later in the latter 1980s - only after semiconductor memories had been better understood by multiple decades of use on earth. Semiconductor memory was pioneered by Intel in the 1960s.

Space program did not advance other technologies by using them. The space program is a consumer of the most reliable and long proven technologies. A useful space program does science. And so we canceled eight earth study satellites for pennies while spending hundred dollar bills to do no science in the ISS. Where is the science? Almost all NASA science is done in the less than 10% budget that does not fly humans.

This point was made previously, repeatedly, and long ago.

One final point. Science with telescopes - like most advanced science today - is best done without humans on site. Astronomers rarely go to the telescope anymore. Best work is accomplished remotely - with the telescope acting as a robot. Just another reason why Hubble - like the Martian Rovers - have been so successful.

This is where space science is conducted:

NASA's Earth Observing System was conceived in the 1980s as a 15-year program that would collect comprehensive data about the planet's oceans, atmosphere and land surface. ...
Landsat, a series of satellites that have provided detailed images of the ground surface for more than 30 years, is in danger of experiencing a gap in service. ...
... a satellite designed to measure rainfall over the entire Earth, the Global Precipitation Measurement mission, has been pushed back to 2012. But the satellite it is designed to replace, the Tropical Rainfall Measuring Mission, can't possibly last that long. That means there will be a period of several years when scientists have no access to the accurate global precipitation measurements that help them improve hurricane forecasts and predict the severity of droughts and flooding. [how politically convenient]
... scientists working on the Hydros mission received a letter canceling their program. They were developing a satellite that would measure soil moisture and differentiate between frozen and unfrozen ground, an increasingly important distinction since melting of the Arctic permafrost has accelerated over the past several decades. The satellite also would have improved drought and flood forecasting.
... Deep Space Climate Observatory, a project he has led for more than seven years, would be canceled. ... The observatory would have provided valuable information about how clouds, snow cover, airborne dust and other phenomena affect the balance between the amount of sunlight Earth absorbs and the amount of heat energy it emits. And because it would have hovered between Earth and the sun at a distance of roughly a million miles, it would have been able to observe the entire sunlit surface of the planet constantly. Such observations could greatly enhance scientists' understanding how much the planet has warmed in recent years and help them predict how much warmer it will get in the future.

The best science now does not deploy humans. Humans do not even go the ground based telescopes. Best science is done by machines and robots.

In deep ocean research, Ballard also came to the same stunning conclusion while maybe a mile under the ocean. He suddenly noticed crew members would rather view outside on cameras rather than use viewing ports. Even deep sea research is better conducted by machines - not by man.

Originally Posted by dar512

I think mankind needs a frontier. It would be sad if we gave up on space exploration.

Which is what happened when we spent so much money putting man in space resulting in no research. The amount of science performed by $80+ billion on ISS could be written on the back of a postage stamp. ISS is scheduled to be decommissioned in 2014. Big bucks. Near zero science - because we deployed men - not machines.

[dar512]

http://www.cnn.com/2009/HEALTH/07/14...ine/index.html

http://www.thespaceplace.com/nasa/spinoffs.html

Just a couple of the many sites documenting the payoff from the space program.

[Shawnee123]

People who can visit me in my moon dome:

Spexx
dar
regular.joe

people who cannot visit me in my moon dome:

tw
bruce
zen

[xoxoxoBruce]

Originally Posted by dar512

The word you're looking for is 'analogy'.

No, strawman.

So your next vacation you'll be sending a legobot? Think it'll be just as good as going yourself?

So your next vacation you'll be sending some guy you don't know, have only seen on TV, and demands the Presidential suite at the Hilton? Think it'll be just as good as going yourself?:p

I think mankind needs a frontier.

There are much more beneficial frontiers, right here on Earth.

It would be sad if we gave up on space exploration.

We whom would not be sad, out number you by an order of magnitude. Space geeks represent a tiny fraction of the world.

[Shawnee123]

I'm hardly a geek, and I think it's fascinating and worthwhile. Like I said before, it appeals to my imagination, and sense of adventure, and that spirit to discover new things that has advanced the human race in ways never dreamed of in the beginning.

[Clodfobble]

That's just because they haven't let you in on the secret yet--they're paying for it with mammogram money.

[Shawnee123]

Oh no you di'int!

[dar512]

Originally Posted by xoxoxoBruce

So your next vacation you'll be sending some guy you don't know, have only seen on TV, and demands the Presidential suite at the Hilton? Think it'll be just as good as going yourself?:p

Sadly, I will not be going into space personally. I'm too old and we waited too long. But I'd like to hope that my children's children could go if they had a mind to.

Originally Posted by xoxoxoBruce

There are much more beneficial frontiers, right here on Earth.

I don't have any objections to pursuing those as well.

Originally Posted by xoxoxoBruce

We whom would not be sad, out number you by an order of magnitude. Space geeks represent a tiny fraction of the world.

Really? When did you do the survey?

If this does turn out to be true, then that just makes me sad as well. It means we really have turned into a nation of bean-counters.

[Shawnee123]