Does Anyone feel like Bailing

Originally Posted by Shawnee123

Why not? Your jumpers will be here any time now. This is YOUR typical MO. Patience, we take longer to catch on to what everyone else is doing, being free-thinking and without the need for the acceptance of the masses.

What I find most appalling ...not at the Cellar-level where I dont give a crap what MerClassic thinks..but in the larger political arena, that there are so many who will rely on one source of information and proclam they have the facts, even knowing that while it may be factual, it does not tell the whole story.

Its the Fox "fair and balanced" approach to discourse.

But it suits their agenda and they can claim they have the facts...just not all the facts.

To limit your knowledge in that manner for fear of learing more that may lead you to *gasp* rethink your position is a self-imposed sentence of ignorance.

Sad commentary that plays out even in this corner of the world.

Or maybe they are just afraid of offending their buddies here or demonstrating a little independent thinking...a sign of weakness?

[tw]

Originally Posted by Redux

..but in the larger political arena, that there are so many who will rely on one source of information and proclaim they have the facts, even knowing that while it may be factual, it does not tell the whole story.

Even worse, it makes insightful and analytic discussion mostly impossible. Always necessary are the reasons why. When one is posting a political mantra - without reasons why – the diatribe insults all who learn why before knowing something. Turns discussions nasty. Cheap shots make no contribution to interesting or relevant conversation.

Cheap shots and hateful propaganda is what Sharon did to restart the Intifada. Serbs did it to incite hate in the Balkans. How a massacre was justified in Rwanda and Brunei. Of course an early master was Hitler. Disparage the bourgeois and intelligencia. Then the resulting breakdown of analytic discussion simply empowered his Brownshirts.

Morethanpretty noted this attitude in Choosing network adapter in the Technology board.

The cheapshot at TW before he ever even posted in this thread was very unwarranted and bad taste. I don't appreciate it in the politics threads (any of the cheap shots taken by anyone), but shit like that needs to stay in those threads. I generally stay away from them because I don't like all the personal attacks. I hate that the politics threads are so immature and unpleasant because of it,

To all non-American Cellar dwellers. Years ago, was a warning how confrontational Fox News/Limbaugh rhetoric has made America. The resulting silence told me back then that nobody outside of America appreciated the confrontational attitude. Why "Mission Accomplished" was so necessary when it was so obviously a lie. And why so many Americans thought nothing of kidnapping any other foreigners (extraordinary rendition) because they 'might be evil'. How many back then did not realize a confrontational Fox News, Limbaugh, et al even consider American allies as second class and subordinate peoples? How many did not realize back in 2003 and 2005 how confrontational and adversarial America has become?

Scary how many just know from only one source of information. When Fox News anchormen snicker during news stories so that you know what political agenda to believe. Snickering news anchormen – even Radio Moscow’s 1960 cold war commentators did not snicker.

It was not a accident that we almost got into a shooting war with China over a silly spy plane. How many non-American understand a dangerous that mindset of a large American minority that even consider torture to be normal and acceptable behavior.

[lookout123]

I don't know about Fox news, but heartily enjoy and endorse torture. I further deduce you do as well. How else to explain your posts?

[classicman]

There has been much debate — and plenty of criticism — lately about how successful the federal government’s economic stimulus plan has been in creating new jobs. And a recent ABC News report regarding the issue is sure to add fuel to the fire.

According to the network, a West Texas wind farm project is scheduled to receive $450 million in stimulus money, a project that is expected to create 300 construction jobs and roughly 2,000 manufacturing jobs. But those manufacturing jobs — the building of the turbine engines — will not be in the United States. A Chinese company is building them.

The language in the economic stimulus bill designates money for alternative energy projects but does not restrict where the equipment is made, or how the money can be spent in purchasing it.
Nearly $8 out of every $10 in stimulus dollars for wind projects is being spent overseas, according to the ABC report, a disturbing statistic especially in light of a national unemployment rate hovering near 10 percent.
Missed mark
We support alternative energy programs and governmental efforts to create jobs to put American workers back to work. But this is clearly not the way to achieve either goal.

Many economists credit the stimulus package with saving jobs, but falling far short of creating the new jobs as promised when the initial measure was approved a year ago.

There is evidence of an economic recovery, but that has yet to translate into jobs. The only bright spot is a decline in job losses, but unemployment remains high. As a result, there is renewed talk in Washington of yet another stimulus package.

Link

[classicman]

You only needed to have watched ABC News Feb. 9 to find another reason that the average, working, or in this case, not-working American, has to be furious with our leadership in Washington, D.C. Two billion dollars of stimulus money has been appropriated for the building of wind turbines, one step on our way to cleaner energy.

Eighty percent, yes, 80 percent, of that money has already or will go to China to manufacture these machines. China is employing thousands of workers to meet the demand, while workers here in that field of manufacturing go begging for work.
A new wind farm just being built in west Texas was used as an example.

Only 300 construction jobs, installing the turbines here, will go to American workers. The machines are being made in China by a facility that employs 2,000 workers.

Link

Old news. The West Texas wind project has been controversial since it was announced last November.

Should it be canceled? Maybe.

But it also resulted in a long-term agreement between US Renewable Energy Group and A Power Energy Generation Systems (the China company) to:

... construct "a new production and assembly plant in the United States that will supply highly advanced wind energy turbines to renewable energy projects throughout North and South America.... produce 1,100 megawatts of wind energy turbines annually, enough to power 330,000 homes. Upon completion, the facility is expected to employ approximately 1,000 American workers and will create additional jobs during the construction process.
http://www.us-reg.com/news/

It is true that the turbines for the West Texas project will come from China and not this yet-to-be-built facility.

But would this long-term agreement have come about w/o the initial stimulus funding? I dont know? Do you?

Right now, we cant compete with Chinese on wind turbine technology. Will this new facility help make the US more competitive or at least become the manufacturing source for turbines on other US wind projects in the future? I would hope so but I dont know? Do you?

Welcome to the world of multi-national companies.

If your agenda is to find questionable projects among the thousands awarded.....you win!

If you are suggesting the stimulus program has been a failure in its first year (with less than half the funds spent) and hasnt created jobs and contributed to slowing/ending the recession.....many economists will disagree.

IMt certainly hasnt been perfect, but its been good for the economy.

added:
Once again, a single article/opinion column or news report will often not tell the whole story, by design, laziness or incompetence. If one stops inquiring after reading just one article/opinion column...is it by design because it fits one's agenda or laziness and a preference for looking at issues as black or white and never considering shades of gray?

[classicman]

This is a particular example, in my opinion, of a really shitty situation. Having that much money go to China?

Our stimulus money was to be spent creating jobs here and investing in America. We shouldn't be sending 80% of the money to China of all places. 1,600,000 for China and 400,000 for American workers?

What is wrong with you, where is the outrage? Why are you so silent on these types of things. Isn't it an Americans responsibility to hold their Gov't accountable? Shouldn't we be trying to stop this?
If we are going to spend untold billions stimulating OUR economy, then we should be utilizing it here in our country for our people, not sending it to China of all places.

Your thoughts? "Old news", a "maybe" and "I don't know" and a few backhanded cheapshots. Bravo.
Personally, I thought you were more objective than that.

ETA:
By the way - Do you know who "the team" is from your link? You may find it interesting. It should answer a lot of questions as to why this is happening. Google the names from your link.

[TheMercenary]

Originally Posted by Redux

I'll make it simple for you.

Show me how this DoAg report is biased or not factual...post the evidence

Or do you have any evidence that it was a payoff to an Obama supporter as you suggested.....then post that evidence.

Or the self-reporting by the company as required by law. You have evidence that the job figures are wrong...post the evidence.

To suggest they are biased or Obama administration lies is just bullshit.

Personally, I'm getting REALLY tired of reading from you and Merc that anything from the Obama administration is a lie or biased.

Back it up with facts or I will keep calling you out on it.....and you can cry me a river.

First stimulus package:

"Millions of shovel ready jobs." = Lie.

The list is really pretty solid.

[TheMercenary]

This administration is so full of bullshit. And now this is how they are going to manipulate the job numbers....

The initial guidance captured jobs for a period of time longer than a quarter (February through September). The new guidance captures jobs for a single quarter (e.g., October through December). In addition, the new guidance eliminates the distinction between a job created and a job retained. Jobs are now simply based on the number of hours worked in a quarter that were paid for by Recovery funds.

What a load of crap.

[TheMercenary]

And sooner or later the money will be gone... as I asked before then what?

Well here ya go...

SAN FRANCISCO (AP) - The nation's public schools are falling under severe financial stress as states slash education spending and drain federal stimulus money that staved off deep classroom cuts and widespread job losses.

School districts have already suffered big budget cuts since the recession began two years ago, but experts say the cash crunch will get a lot worse as states run out of stimulus dollars.

http://apnews.myway.com/article/20100214/D9DS59VG0.html

Right back where they started before millions of taxpayer dollars.

I understand completely.

You live in a black and white world when it comes to anything this administration does.

Either it has to be 100% perfect or it is a failure.

Try applying that same standard to your own lives....which might explain why you (Merc) are so bitter and angry.
classic:

you didnt answer my questions.

Will that agreement to build a turbine facility in the US have come about w/o the stimulus first? That new facility will certainly create jobs and make the US more competitive in the long run.

It is called gray areas...something evidently, you refuse to consider.

I said, if your agenda is to find questionable stimulus projects among the thousands awarded, you will.

You can apply the same standard to other large govt program - using that standard, TANF (welfare), SNAP (food stamps) are failures because a very small percentage of recipients abuse the system and should be abolished. The same wingnut ideological arguments.

Black and white ideological thinking.

IMO, it is a failed way of thinking.

And please dont talk to me about objectivity when you are so narrow minded in your own thinking.

[classicman]

My "agenda" if there is one, is to note the waste and abuse of my tax dollars and those of my children's and at this point THEIR children's. Obama doesn't need any more cheerleaders. If you expect me to rah rah all day, you will certainly be sadly mistaken.
However, if and when I find abuse or something that seems as though it is a waste, I will certainly bring it up for dissection and discussion.

You questions - lets see.

Will that agreement to build a turbine facility in the US have come about w/o the stimulus first?

How the hell would I know? A guess, probably not. Congress has apparently been too busy focused on healthcare to do much of anything else.

Will this new facility help make the US more competitive or at least become the manufacturing source for turbines on other US wind projects in the future? I would hope so but I dont know? Do you?

Same answer as your first question. Would the 1.4 BILLION be better spent going towards that same goal? Being spent here in America or sent to China. I can't see how it wouldn't.

Now its your turn to answer mine from post #1117 and give detailed info on the "team" from your link in post #1116.

Originally Posted by classicman

My "agenda" if there is one, is to note the waste and abuse of my tax dollars and those of my children's and at this point THEIR children's. Obama doesn't need any more cheerleaders. If you expect me to rah rah all day, you will certainly be sadly mistaken.
However, if and when I find abuse or something that seems as though it is a waste, I will certainly bring it up for dissection and discussion.

You questions - lets see.

How the hell would I know? A guess, probably not. Congress has apparently been too busy focused on healthcare to do much of anything else.

Same answer as your first question. Would the 1.4 BILLION be better spent going towards that same goal? Being spent here in America or sent to China. I can't see how it wouldn't.

Now its your turn to answer mine from post #1117 and give detailed info on the "team" from your link in post #1116.

You made my point....you're a black and white kinda guy....looking for the easy answers...and its not that easy.

And dont give me that crap that your noble agenda is looking after the taxpayers money. I care just as much about the economy and the country. I just try to look from a more comprehensive perspective.

Your question? So the company in question has Washington experience? Nothing new.

You want to focus on the negatives rather than the positives and find failure in every Obama program...have at it, dude.

I look for the good and understand and accept that it wont be perfect, but am comfortable with the outcome as long as the good is much greater than the bad.
'
And, IMO, and the opinion of many economists, the stimulus program has been good for the economy. You dont agree with me and those economists....fine.....but dont suggest that your shallow black and white approach to thinking is better.

As to respect...from one who asks for my help privately on one occasion and my understanding of issues on another occasion and then mocks my sources and attacks me publicly? That is respect? Take it somewhere else, dude.

[classicman]

What a cop-out. You again avoided the questions, attacked the poster and then try to discuss respect?

What is this "Washington experience" you mentioned? Please elaborate. I don't want to, how did you put it,

If one stops inquiring after reading just one article/opinion column...is it by design because it fits one's agenda or laziness and a preference for looking at issues as black or white and never considering shades of gray?

. . .seems like that shoe is on your foot.

Originally Posted by classicman

What a cop-out. You again avoided the questions, attacked the poster and then try to discuss respect?

Right back at you.....yes, I mean you, fucking hypocrite.

Originally Posted by classicman

What is this "Washington experience" you mentioned? Please elaborate. I don't want to, how did you put it,

I got a $500,000 grant from the GHW Bush DoJ when I worked at the NCPC. Does that make it a political payoff or make me a Bush supporter?

Shallow thinking again, dude...or just ignorant.