I Miss Bush

[SamIam]

Originally Posted by TheMercenary

But now don't you think you are adjusting the model to fix your own personal opinion? Because any idealist could put anything they want into that opinion as you define it. If I think some form of person transportation is necessary to my survival then someone else should provide it to me. And if I don't think I make enough money to get those things that I think I should have, for what ever reason, then someone else (the government) should provide it for me. And the government should be available in selected cases to do that. But for the majority of situations it should be a stop gap, not a means to an end.

Try being unable to afford a car and living in a town with no public transportation. Uncle Sam doesn't owe me or anyone else a car, but some sort of public transit is invaluable to the population at large for any number of reasons.

Various groups still adhere blindly to the dogma that the US is the land of opportunity and anyone who works hard enough can obtain entrance to the upper middle class, no matter what their background. Certainly, its possible to work hard and live better here than in many other less fortunate countries.

But the "land of opportunity - fields of waving grain" construct died with the passing of the 19th century. In the 1800's an immigrant could land in New York and make his way West to claim 160 acres of land at little or no cost, work hard, and create a new life for himself. No more.

Today our resources are finite and our society is stratified. A child brought up in the semi-war zone of the urban housing projects simply does not have access to the quality of education and opportunities that a child of upper middle class parents living in a gated community does. I continue to be amazed that there are people who argue otherwise.

I don't expect the government to provide me with silk underware and a 60 inch flatscreen TV. However, a society which provides it children with a good education, basic health care and the food to mature into healthy adults is making a very wise investment that will pay off in terms of increased worker productivity and greater economic well-being.

If you don't believe this, take a visit to the city of Receife (pop one million plus) in northern Brazil where I once lived. Only children of the well to do go to school. The rest run in packs on the streets, always hungry, often suffering chronic disease, and poorly clothed. Girls 10 years of age or younger resort to prostitution - the only work available. The Brazilian government either cannot or will not intervene on the behalf of the country's children or its adult citizens. If you want a road to your house, you build it yourself. If you want security for your home or neighborhood, you hire private thugs. Its a libertarian's dream, but its not mine.

[TheMercenary]

Originally Posted by SamIam

Try being unable to afford a car and living in a town with no public transportation. Uncle Sam doesn't owe me or anyone else a car, but some sort of public transit is invaluable to the population at large for any number of reasons.

So isit a Right that you are owed to some form of public transportation? The majority of cities and towns in the US do not have one. The days of a RR station for every city and town are long gone.

Various groups still adhere blindly to the dogma that the US is the land of opportunity and anyone who works hard enough can obtain entrance to the upper middle class, no matter what their background. Certainly, its possible to work hard and live better here than in many other less fortunate countries.

But the "land of opportunity - fields of waving grain" construct died with the passing of the 19th century. In the 1800's an immigrant could land in New York and make his way West to claim 160 acres of land at little or no cost, work hard, and create a new life for himself. No more.

How would you explain the success of the Chinese or Korean grocery store in many black dominated areas of the inner city? How about the success of the Cuban-Americans in Miami?

Today our resources are finite and our society is stratified. A child brought up in the semi-war zone of the urban housing projects simply does not have access to the quality of education and opportunities that a child of upper middle class parents living in a gated community does. I continue to be amazed that there are people who argue otherwise.

I would agree completely. And the sooner that we all recognize that society is stratified the sooner we can stop with all the class warfare and attempts at wealth redistribution.

I don't expect the government to provide me with silk underware and a 60 inch flatscreen TV. However, a society which provides it children with a good education, basic health care and the food to mature into healthy adults is making a very wise investment that will pay off in terms of increased worker productivity and greater economic well-being.

I would agree. To bad we don't live in a utopia. Because we have been throwing money at those issues and they have improved marginally at best.

[quotet]If you don't believe this, take a visit to the city of Receife (pop one million plus) in northern Brazil where I once lived. Only children of the well to do go to school. The rest run in packs on the streets, always hungry, often suffering chronic disease, and poorly clothed. Girls 10 years of age or younger resort to prostitution - the only work available. The Brazilian government either cannot or will not intervene on the behalf of the country's children or its adult citizens. If you want a road to your house, you build it yourself. If you want security for your home or neighborhood, you hire private thugs. Its a libertarian's dream, but its not mine.[/quote]I have been to plenty of Third World countries. Thank God we don't live in one.

[SamIam]

Public transit, universal education, fire and police protection, etc. are not rights. They are sound investments that a society makes in its own well being.

Those who benefit from our current system, yet complain about paying for it suffer from a narcissistic world view at best. "I've done great. The rest of you are on your own."

Immigrants from other countries who make good here are by definition largely members of the middle class in their own countries and/or have useful connections in the US. Our immigration laws ensure this.

The spunky oriental immigrant who hits the big time in the ghetto is largely a myth. And for everyone like him, there is a woman from Thailand who comes here and opens up a "massage parlor' where sex is sold in the back room. She eventually becomes caught up in the legal system and costs the local taxpayers thousands.

Individual annecdotes are a dime a dozen. They are fun to relate, but useless for implementing policy.

The term "throwing money at" is shop worn and was a questionable analogy from the start. Schools in poor and rural areas have been underfunded for decades if not forever. No tycoons from the exclusive side of town come through and throw dimes at kids in the ghetto. I have yet to see a wealthy matron from Denver's posh Cherrycreek neighborhood travel out here to the small and very distressed town of Paradox, Colorado to endow a new school library filled with comic books.

The only thing Congress throws money at are special interests (wealthy campaign contributors) and its own boondoggles.

As for the third world, the US is working on joining it.

[TheMercenary]

Originally Posted by SamIam

Public transit, universal education, fire and police protection, etc. are not rights. They are sound investments that a society makes in its own well being.

At what cost and to what end?

Those who benefit from our current system, yet complain about paying for it suffer from a narcissistic world view at best. "I've done great. The rest of you are on your own."

And like others here, I hear another cry along the lines of class envy. I do agree with what you are saying, they should charge higher rider fees to make it work better.

Immigrants from other countries who make good here are by definition largely members of the middle class in their own countries and/or have useful connections in the US. Our immigration laws ensure this.

I agree. Yet those who live here and have all the same advantages and in fact more advantages and connections still can't do as well. Why do you think that is?

The spunky oriental immigrant who hits the big time in the ghetto is largely a myth. And for everyone like him, there is a woman from Thailand who comes here and opens up a "massage parlor' where sex is sold in the back room. She eventually becomes caught up in the legal system and costs the local taxpayers thousands.

Yet they are making a dollar and completely support themselves. I would support the legalization of prostitution like it is in NV.

Individual annecdotes are a dime a dozen. They are fun to relate, but useless for implementing policy.

Damm right. Which is why I am tired of hearing the politicians telling me another story about "Betty Johnson from Bumbfuck USA" and how because of one party or the other has been screwed by the system. It only contributes to more class envy and warfare.

The term "throwing money at" is shop worn and was a questionable analogy from the start.

BS, it is not about some "wealthy matron" tossing dimes, it is about the billions wasted by state and federal governments on throwing money at failing schools.

The only thing Congress throws money at are special interests (wealthy campaign contributors) and its own boondoggles.

As for the third world, the US is working on joining it.

Agreed and agreed.

[SamIam]

Originally Posted by TheMercenary

And like others here, I hear another cry along the lines of class envy.

You mean because I'm currently on disability, my viewpoint is skewed? My eyes have certainly been opened due to the events of the past 10 years, I'll grant you that. But I had a solid middle class upbringing, was fortunate enough to earn an advanced college degree and spent most of my career in a professional position. Other than a brief flirtation with your pal, Ayn Rand, at age 17, I am a life long humanist. I owe my outlook to intelligence, enlightened self-interest, and compassion.

[TheMercenary]

Originally Posted by SamIam

You mean because I'm currently on disability, my viewpoint is skewed?

Absolutely not!

My eyes have certainly been opened due to the events of the past 10 years, I'll grant you that. But I had a solid middle class upbringing, was fortunate enough to earn an advanced college degree and spent most of my career in a professional position. Other than a brief flirtation with your pal, Ayn Rand, at age 17, I am a life long humanist. I owe my outlook to intelligence, enlightened self-interest, and compassion.

Congrats, and you're posts reflect your depth of experience. This was nothing personal. It was a comment on what people's perceptions are about the role of the federal government and how much they should take from others to support bloated and inefficient systems that continually fail the electorate.

[xoxoxoBruce]

Originally Posted by SamIam

....A child brought up in the semi-war zone of the urban housing projects simply does not have access to the quality of education and opportunities that a child of upper middle class parents living in a gated community does.....

But it does provide a place to dump sex-offenders.