9 years and 4500 Dead Americans

[ZenGum]

Originally Posted by Lamplighter

One day after the US troops leave Iraq the turmoil deepens...

NY Times
JACK HEALY
December 19, 2011

Arrest Order for Sunni Leader in Iraq Opens New Rift


And the beat goes on...

Jeez, they could at least wait until the dust of departure has settled.

I was glad we have managed this more-or-less dignified exit, although as has been pointed out, there are still lots of foreigners running about in Iraq, many of them with guns. I hope Iraq holds together for a few years at least. It would be embarrassing if it disintegrates too soon. I suspect within five or ten years it will face another major upheaval and will either break up or be seized by another tyrant.

IMHO, the Iraq war was NOT worth it. Yes, the world is down one brutal but insignificant tyrant. #$%% him, but so what? The price was an enormous political and economic strain on the US and its allies, and has left these substantially weaker than before. Meanwhile, resurgent Russia and China - the real threats to global peace and justice - have grown unchecked.

Originally Posted by Undertoad
tw, what are the strategic objectives and exit strategy in Afghanistan?

Not just TW, I'd like to hear anyone answer this question.

The worthwhile "exit strategy" is spelled W-I-N. Regardless of resistance, uncaring of time. Make that which is less-than-democracy or pretends-to-democracy extinct. Your world will improve.

Yeah nice soundbite, what conditions constitute winning? And are you really keen on bleeding indefinitely in the mountains of FUBARistan while China continues to move ahead of the US?

[Lamplighter]

Originally Posted by ZenGum

<snip>

Not just TW, I'd like to hear anyone answer this question.
<snip>

IMO, Bush's war in Iraq came about for one rather trivial reason...
It drove GWB nuts that Sadam was giving $10K to the families of suicide bombers in Afghanistan.
It was then up to Cheney to contrive the war to gain control of Iraq's oil fields,
which the oil industry wanted for when the Saudi fields run dry.

----

My answer to the UT's question is the same as back when
doves and hawks were arguing over how to get out of Viet Nam.

During one TV show, there was a vehement debate between talking heads,
and Shirley McLain (an outspoken dove) was asked how she proposed to get out of Nam.
Her answer was: " By boat "
.

[ZenGum]

Yeah, but Afghanistan is landlocked.

We're really screwed now, aren't we?

[tw]

Originally Posted by Lamplighter

It drove GWB nuts that Sadam was giving $10K to the families of suicide bombers in Afghanistan.
It was then up to Cheney to contrive the war to gain control of Iraq's oil fields.

George Jr's autobiography demonstrates why none of that was relevant to him. Remember, George Jr was only a figurehead. Cheney, Rumsfeld, et al made the decisions. George Jr did not even read his own memos - as demonstrated by the 911 Commission Report and reported by his Secretary of the Treasury.

Purpose of war is to take a conflict to the negotiation table. That's the only purpose. The military gets there. Then a leadership presents surrender terms and implements plans made before a first battle was fought. Basic military doctrine understood over 2000 years ago.

When Swartzkopf asked for those terms, our civilian leadership had no plans. Swartzkopf had to invent terms, on the spot, without any planning or forethought. It was not his job. Cheney, Rumsfeld, or the other Washington based leadership failed to do their job.

Saddam attacked and killed maybe 10,000 or 20,000 civilians in Basra as US soldiers watched helplessly from less than 5 miles away. Saddam kept and liberally used amour to suppress all dissent. Surrender terms were so flawed that we eventually had to create no-fly zones for another decade. Clinton finally solved many of those problems with multiple cruise missile strikes.

Cheney, et al are recorded in history as the reason why Saddam survived. They needed any excuse to exonerate their legacy. They invented reason to attack Saddam. To have the military correct their mistakes.

Iraqis could not liberate themselves from Saddam because Cheney, Rumsfeld, et al screwed up. Failed to understand that the purpose of all war is only negotiations at a peace table. No way around military principles taught 2500 years ago. Civilians threw away the military's resounding victory by not planning for the peace.

Irony was obvious with the fall of Baghdad. Within days, it was obvious that a same civilian leadership (Cheney, Rumsfeld, et al) had, again, done no planning for the peace. You can read that obvious problem when it was happening here in the Cellar. Next six months required implementing of phase four planning. Those same civilian leaders (and Paul Bremer) did no planning. Their 'do nothing' eventually made necessary an insurgency.

This was so obvious to all generals that one general after another resigned rather than take command of Mission Accomplished. In order to find any general, Rumsfeld had to promote a one star general (without any experience but as a division commander) to two stars so that he could take command.

Sanchez was totally unprepared for the job. But he was the only general that would take command. As a result, thousand of American soldiers were killed. In part because another basic military doctrine was violated. Only one supreme commander can be in the field. Rumsfeld, Cheney, et al had so little grasp as to create two constantly fighting commanders - Bremer and Sanchez.

In Desert Storm and Mission Accomplished, a military victory was trashed by ignorant civilians who only had their political agenda. Extremists such as Cheney, Rumsfeld, and other "Project for a New American Century" founders had no basic knowledge. Worse, their political agenda said, "America does not do nation building".

Mission Accomplished was those extremists trying to protect their legacy. Find any excuse to take out Saddam so history would not blame them. Because they made no plans for the peace. So what did they do in Mission Accomplished? Again, made no plans for the peace.

And what did they do in Afghanistan? No plans for the peace explain why America all but surrendered Afghanistan to the Taliban in 2002.

They attacked Saddam to protect their legacy. Then made the exact same mistakes again. Read posts that describe it as it was happening in the Cellar back in and after 2002. Because their mistakes were that obvious that long ago.

[tw]

Wow. The Axis of Evil now expands to include FUBARistan. Another nation we must unilaterally attack for no reason.

Again we attack a nation that our citizens believe is evil ... but cannot find on a map.