Guns don't kill people ....

[Sundae]

I am one of the lucky few who has never had to confront a criminal in my own home.
Phew. With no gun I've no doubt I would have been bludgeoned to death every weekend for years save for this fact.

Anyway.

When I first heard about the shooting in Oak Creek I said confidently to Mum, "It'll be a community issue. Sikh on Sikh, personal. Because no-one messes with Sikhs." All the Sikh men I've known (bar one very extreme exception that proved the rule) were big, burly and radiated an inner peace-man-but-don't-fuck-with-me vibe.

I was wrong. Didn't mean I was any less shocked.
I had a Sikh temple in the road behind me when I lived in Leicester.
The idea of those people being gunned down makes me feel physically sick.

[dmg1969]

Originally Posted by Sundae

I am one of the lucky few who has never had to confront a criminal in my own home.
Phew. With no gun I've no doubt I would have been bludgeoned to death every weekend for years save for this fact.

Anyway.

When I first heard about the shooting in Oak Creek I said confidently to Mum, "It'll be a community issue. Sikh on Sikh, personal. Because no-one messes with Sikhs." All the Sikh men I've known (bar one very extreme exception that proved the rule) were big, burly and radiated an inner peace-man-but-don't-fuck-with-me vibe.

I was wrong. Didn't mean I was any less shocked.
I had a Sikh temple in the road behind me when I lived in Leicester.
The idea of those people being gunned down makes me feel physically sick.

And I'm with you, Sundae. Someone who does something like that to other human beings is not fit to live among the rest of us humans. The same thing with the theater in Colorado.

Those of us who choose to take advantage of our 2nd Amendment right to own guns are not unfeeling, irresponsible or insane (as many anti-gun people want to you to believe) In fact, carrying a gun makes us MORE cautious and conscience of out actions. Example: I get into a shouting match with a guy in another car. He pulls over and so do I. A fight breaks out and he pulls a knife. I pull my gun and shoot him. Was I in my right to do so? Technically, yes. However, a judge would rule that, had I not pulled over, the fight would not have happened. Had the fight not happened, he would not have pulled the knife. Had he not pulled the knife, I would not have pulled my gun and shot him. I am someone who has read countless books about the legal issues associated with carrying a concealed weapon. See, we realize what a huge responsibility it is. We're not all trying to John Wayne.

[BigV]

Originally Posted by dmg1969

snip--

Those of us who choose to take advantage of our 2nd Amendment right to own guns are not unfeeling, irresponsible or insane (as many anti-gun people want to you to believe)

You sound like a whiny crybaby when you say things like this. Oh, waaah, they're calling me unfeeling, irresponsible, insane. If that kind of "attack" is a problem for you, there's a super easy solution--stop "taking advantage of (part of) our 2nd amendment right". Easy peasy.

Originally Posted by dmg1969

In fact, carrying a gun makes us MORE cautious and conscience of out actions.
--snip

Ahem.

Unless you're a fucking homicidal nutball like the asshole in CO and in WI. Your argument is faulty, sir. Carrying a gun does NOT make one MORE cautious and conscientious of one's actions. You may well be cautious and conscientious before and after carrying a gun, but it's not the gun that does it.

[dmg1969]

You sound like a whiny crybaby when you say things like this. Oh, waaah, they're calling me unfeeling, irresponsible, insane. If that kind of "attack" is a problem for you, there's a super easy solution--stop "taking advantage of (part of) our 2nd amendment right". Easy peasy.

Nice argument. When you start resorting to name calling, it's a sign you're losing the argument.


Ahem.

Unless you're a fucking homicidal nutball like the asshole in CO and in WI. Your argument is faulty, sir. Carrying a gun does NOT make one MORE cautious and conscientious of one's actions. You may well be cautious and conscientious before and after carrying a gun, but it's not the gun that does it.

Let me ask you a question. Have you EVER carried a concealed weapon? If not, your argument is faulty because you can't speak from experience. I've been through it, so don't pretend that you know what you're talking about. I had a road rage incident where the guy was literally pounding on the steering wheel trying to get me to pull over. Why didn't I pull over, smart guy? Because I was aware of something called disparity of force as escalation of force. I did not want to put myself in the situation of possibly having to use my gun so I used evasive driving and lost the guy. So, if you don't know what you're talking about, don't try to act like you do. You just look stupid.

[Spexxvet]

Originally Posted by dmg1969

I did not want to put myself in the situation of possibly having to use my gun so I used evasive driving and lost the guy.

Then where's the fun in packing heat?

BTW, what did you do to piss him off, and did you do it because you knew, in the back of your mind, that you had a gun to back up your shit?

[dmg1969]

Now you see, Spex...there you go again ASSuming. Why do you ASSume that I purposefully did something to piss him off? Because I had a gun? If that was the case, why would I have gone out of my way to avoid the guy? Actually, he was trying to pass everyone before the two lanes narrowed to one. He did not make it in time and had to get behind me. That sent him into an uncontrolled rage. I have never seen someone act like that behind the wheel. I seriously though he was going to ram me. I'll admit, I was scared. That's why I did NOT stop...I know what would have happened.

[Spexxvet]

Originally Posted by dmg1969

Now you see, Spex...there you go again ASSuming. Why do you ASSume that I purposefully did something to piss him off? Because I had a gun? If that was the case, why would I have gone out of my way to avoid the guy? Actually, he was trying to pass everyone before the two lanes narrowed to one. He did not make it in time and had to get behind me. That sent him into an uncontrolled rage. I have never seen someone act like that behind the wheel. I seriously though he was going to ram me. I'll admit, I was scared. That's why I did NOT stop...I know what would have happened.

Sure, you were completely innocent.

[sexobon]

Originally Posted by BigV

... Unless you're a fucking homicidal nutball like the asshole in CO and in WI. Your argument is faulty, sir. Carrying a gun does NOT make one MORE cautious and conscientious of one's actions. You may well be cautious and conscientious before and after carrying a gun, but it's not the gun that does it.

I respectfully disagree BigV. While you are certainly entitled to your own opinion, you are not entitled to your own facts and the fact is that you can't read the minds of people while they are carrying guns to know whether or not they take the responsibility seriously enough to adjust their behaviors accordingly.

I've carried concealed firearms both off duty and on duty, both in the US and other countries as a representative of the US. I've always had a heightened sense of the ramifications of my actions due to the complexities that carrying a lethal weapon introduces into my routine, ramifications that aren't there when I'm not carrying.

I also have a heightened sense of the ramifications of my actions when I'm driving a car as opposed to riding a bicycle, roller skating; or, jogging as I know that running into someone with a car is far more likely to have serious consequences in the way of morbidity and mortality.

The situation is similar when using power tools and I believe it applies to most people. These behavior trends don't just disappear for the sake of a position in a debate. Using those people who are exceptions in the aforementioned situations to extrapolate a generality discredits the position for me.

[Griff]

Originally Posted by Sundae

When I first heard about the shooting in Oak Creek I said confidently to Mum, "It'll be a community issue. Sikh on Sikh, personal. Because no-one messes with Sikhs." All the Sikh men I've known (bar one very extreme exception that proved the rule) were big, burly and radiated an inner peace-man-but-don't-fuck-with-me vibe.

I see this incident less as a gun story than a how unbelievably stupid the folks in the neo-nazi movement are story. This is apparently the story of failed education from school through Fort Bragg where he apparently hooked up with the White Power movement and was actually involved in psy-ops. Dude was on law enforcements radar because of his racist music. I am more concerned with race terrorism than guns.

[Sundae]

Originally Posted by dmg1969

And I'm with you, Sundae. Someone who does something like that to other human beings is not fit to live among the rest of us humans.

Originally Posted by Griff

I see this incident less as a gun story... I am more concerned with race terrorism than guns.

Completely. I didn't come here to raise a gun issue.
Just wanted to comment on slaughter, however it was achieved.

Sadness.