College is not where you find a career. College is where you have fun and drink beer

[Undertoad]

It's excuses. I know PHP4, I could just learn object-oriented programming and do PHP5 and then I'd be hireable for that. 6 weeks if I'm not working, 6 months if I am.

Or fuckin Drupal or Wordpress or JQuery, people like that shit.

On the other hand, after chasing resume keywords for over half my lifetime, to get uninspiring jobs in cubicle farms, under Office Space bosses who are miserable and want to share their misery, now you say I should consider moving away from family friends and J... for who for what? I am dog tired of this approach to life.

[infinite monkey]

Originally Posted by Undertoad

It's excuses. I know PHP4, I could just learn object-oriented programming and do PHP5 and then I'd be hireable for that. 6 weeks if I'm not working, 6 months if I am.

Or fuckin Drupal or Wordpress or JQuery, people like that shit.

On the other hand, after chasing resume keywords for over half my lifetime, to get uninspiring jobs in cubicle farms, under Office Space bosses who are miserable and want to share their misery, now you say I should consider moving away from family friends and J... for who for what? I am dog tired of this approach to life.

Seriously. The Job is the be-all end-all purpose in life. If one does not have The Job, then one is stagnating and lazy. Our entire purpose on earth is not to be happy (whatever makes you happy) our purpose is to attain and hold onto The Job. No one cares about your misery, if your misery makes you rethink The Job. You better shuck and jive and jive and shuck your ass off to get and keep The Job, or you might as well crawl into the sewer. When you are old enough to leave The Job, you may have a couple years to enjoy the buck-fitty you put away for your few years alive after The Job. Or, you might die first. No matter, others will fill The Job.

In other words, I hear ya UT, I hear ya!

[Pete Zicato]

Originally Posted by Undertoad

On the other hand, after chasing resume keywords for over half my lifetime, to get uninspiring jobs in cubicle farms, under Office Space bosses who are miserable and want to share their misery, now you say I should consider moving away from family friends and J... for who for what? I am dog tired of this approach to life.

I didn't say you should move. Just that it's an option.

What I heard you saying was that your degree was crap because it won't get you a job anymore. But that's provably false.

I can tell you from experience that there are plenty Office Space bosses out there. But I also know that there are jobs out there without that kind of crap.

But now I'm wondering if you belong in CS. Is there a CS job you'd like to have? If so, what?

[tw]

Originally Posted by Pete Zicato

But now I'm wondering if you belong in CS. Is there a CS job you'd like to have?

What exactly is CS? Many college computer programming courses are about teaching Word, Excel, and Access. That's computer science?

A TV show "Uncover Boss" demonstrates the problem. Company bosses have no idea how the work gets done. A boss must understand what is going on at least three levels below him. When the boss has no idea, then first impressions are more important than what an employee can do. In the case of "Uncover Boss", the employee is rewarded with gifts rather than a boss actually addressing problems he has created.

Many IT bosses have little grasp of how the system works. Beause, in many organizations, its about telling his boss what he wants to hear rather than supporting employees who then better serve customers. In such organizations, losses due what never happened are apparent maybe four or more years later... by not appearing. IOW a boss never learns why he needed the more qualified employee.

So, yes, it is a problem for an educated worker who is 'over qualified'. Especially when a boss only understands Word, Excel, Access, e-mail, and stock quotes. So what really is computer science?

[Pete Zicato]

Originally Posted by tw

What exactly is CS? Many college computer programming courses are about teaching Word, Excel, and Access. That's computer science?

That's bullshit misdirection, TW. Yes, many CS departments provide courses for Word, Excel, etc. but those are for business majors etc.

Here's the current degree program from SPU where I got my degree. See any Excel courses in there?

http://www.spu.edu/acad/UGCatalog/20...CSC&path=MAJCS

Originally Posted by tw

A TV show "Uncover Boss" demonstrates the problem.

It's a bad sign, TW, when you start quoting reality tv for your resources.

Originally Posted by tw

Many IT bosses have little grasp of how the system works.

How long have you worked in IT, TW? Do you have anything to base this on?

I've got 30 years in the field. Some bosses have been great and some bosses have been clueless. It's just the way life is.

[Perry Winkle]

Originally Posted by tw

What exactly is CS? Many college computer programming courses are about teaching Word, Excel, and Access. That's computer science?

So, yes, it is a problem for an educated worker who is 'over qualified'. Especially when a boss only understands Word, Excel, Access, e-mail, and stock quotes. So what really is computer science?

The "science" of computing. Applied math, really. My program was theory heavy. Lots of mathematics, formal methods and systems programming (assemblers, compilers, etc.). We wrote C, LISP, various assemblers and Prolog. My favorite project was creating a VM for a hypothetical machine from the ground up.

We didn't touch the end-user stuff like Office, unless you count writing an HTML parser and an email client in C.

I've had excellent "IT" managers. My current one, the CTO of the company, has an MS CS from CMU. He can handle more information than any single person should, knows our business domain very well, and can still talk PL-theory when it comes up.

* IT is such a weasel term in my mind. It's like lumping butchers and surgeons into the same profession because they both cut meat.

[tw]

Originally Posted by Perry Winkle

* IT is such a weasel term in my mind.

Superbly describes the industry problem. When I was learning this stuff, programming languages were never college courses. You were expected to learn that on your own. Course descriptions from Seattle Pacific are apparently still based in that concept. But courses for many computer students today are:
•CIS 100 Introduction to PC's
•CIS 101 Introduction to Spreadsheets
•CIS 102 Intro to Data Base Management
•CIS 103 Intro to Word Processing
•CIS 104 Intro to Desktop Publishing
•CIS 105 Introduction to Windows
•CIS 106 Introduction to the INTERNET
•CIS 108 Introduction to Web Page Design
•CIS 110 Computer Info Sys for Management
•CIS 111 Computer Science I: Programming/Concept
•CIS 113 PC Maintenance and Support
•CIS 114 Web Design and Development
•CIS 117 Computer Aided Drafting I
•CIS 120 Teaching With Technology
•CIS 122 Visual Basic
•CIS 126 Computer Architecture and Organization
•CIS 136 C#
•CIS 140 Client-Side Web Development
•CIS 141 Introduction to Linux
•CIS 142 Linux Administration
•CIS 148 Computer Graphics I
•CIS 151 Systems Analysis and Design
•CIS 155 PC Applications on Networks
•CIS 156 Netware Administration and Support
•CIS 158 Windows Server Administration and Support
•CIS 170 Networking Fundamentals (Cisco Exploration Semester 1)
•CIS 173 Customer Service Skills-Help Desk Professional

None of those would have been acceptable as college courses. Unfortunately another college course is remedial mathematics. To teach basic math that should have been learned in high school.

I cite this course guide because a girl said she was taking Word. They did not teach 'fields' or 'forms' or any other 'programming' features in Word. How is that a computer programming course?

What does an IT boss do when some computer science degrees are devoid of science? A fundamental fact from management. The boss must know how work gets done at least three levels below him. Many do not. The TV show "Undercover Boss" demonstrates that reality (and makes some people angry for the same reason).

How many times has someone said, "But he is an IT guy. He knows computers! He recommends a surge protector." My experience: most IT guys have no idea how electricity works. Most protectors do not even claim to do that protection. But he is an IT guy. He recommended it. Therefore it must be true!

If the boss has no grasp of the technology, then how would he know an educated IT guy from another who is only a tech?

Weasels. BTW, weasels also run many engineering departments. A high number of weasels would explain why so many better educated people cannot find jobs. For example, how many of UT's potential bosses really knew anything about IT?

An innovation that did not happen is not missed by a weasel. An innovation that is impossible with less qualified employees never appears as a loss on any spread sheet. Who is the reason for more job losses four and more years later? An innovation that does happen means even more jobs are lost four plus years later. Innovation and the resulting new jobs cannot happen when weasels are management. Meaning even more educated people have less job opportunities four plus years later.

Weasels are better when road kill. They make an innovative smell. How does one separate a potential educated boss from a potential weasel?

[glatt]

"CIS 106 Introduction to the INTERNET"
ha ha ha ha

[Perry Winkle]

I assume and hope "CIS" is short for something like Computer & Information Systems. But I wouldn't be surprised if they called it Science. I've seen curricula like that and it makes me sad.

There's nothing wrong per se with teaching specific tools to those who don't need to know more. But to pretend that sort of instruction will make you a strong technologist or builder of things is bad.

Theory for me has been the basis of what most would call a successful career. The languages and tools I have built and used are a byproduct of the practice of applying that theory. Theory is what I think should be taught as the core of any "science", even though the theory won't prepare you for a career applying it more than incidentally.

There are so many things about my career and work life that disappoint me or make me outright angry. People disregarding good engineering practice (usually just because of laziness!) and such. Mostly it's stuff I can change. I looked back at some of PZ's posts earlier in the thread and I think I'm finally prepared to force some of those changes.