Iran Nuclear Negotiations

[Adak]

Originally Posted by xoxoxoBruce

Sanctions aren't imposed by us, they are imposed by a/the collection of nations. Hate to break it to you but there are almost 200 countries in the world, and a number of them don't give a rat's ass what we want.

Every nation is free to impose or not impose any sanction.

That includes us.

If you got this dismissive attitude on sale Bruce, please return it.

[xoxoxoBruce]

Originally Posted by Adak

Every nation is free to impose or not impose any sanction.

That includes us.

Sanctions 101...
.........USA: Hey Iran, no nukes or we won't buy your oil.
199 others: We will, we will buy oil.
.........USA: Hey guys, we have to stick together.
100 others: Oh all right... sulk sulk.
50 others: No, we won't help the USA bully poor Iran.
49 others: OK, we'll go along with an embargo.... pssst Iran, meet me in the alley.
And that concludes Sanctions 101.

If you got this dismissive attitude on sale Bruce, please return it.

I will always be dismissive of people who think they know what's going on with a talk radio education.
Half the time what they think are facts are actually opinions from a source with an agenda.
The other half the facts are right, but they don't have a clue what it means.

[Adak]

Of course there is a huge black market for oil from Iran. It's also true however, that the sanctions have cut off a huge amount of the financial markets, to Iran. That impinges on some segments of Iran's economy, but not all.

I will always be dismissive of people who think they know what's going on with a talk radio education.
Half the time what they think are facts are actually opinions from a source with an agenda.
The other half the facts are right, but they don't have a clue what it means.

Yes, I listen to Roger Hedgecock's radio show. I catch it about twice a week. No, I don't always agree with him, but Hedgecock was the last successful mayor of the city that has now become "Enron by the Sea", after several liberal Mayors ran it into the ground, giving unions a sweetheart deal and a half.

We came within a knife's edge of declaring bankruptcy, and several years later, we're still in serious debt, and still behind in supplying necessary services. Water pipe replacements are still years behind, and periodically, an old one bursts, and these are water mains! Street repairs, etc. are in the same sad shape.

Don't be so presumptuous, Bruce. I took Poly Sci in college, and get most of my news (by far), from the BBC and other net sites. I have a degree, and a lot more experience than you have.

You may not like my opinions, or my posts, but it doesn't mean they're wrong.

[xoxoxoBruce]

Originally Posted by Adak

You may not like my opinions, or my posts, but it doesn't mean they're wrong.

It's not your opinions I question it's your facts. When they come from talk radio, they aren't facts they're someone else's opinion, and what you heard, or thought you heard, is not verifiable unless you can link to transcripts.

[Adak]

Originally Posted by xoxoxoBruce

It's not your opinions I question it's your facts. When they come from talk radio, they aren't facts they're someone else's opinion, and what you heard, or thought you heard, is not verifiable unless you can link to transcripts.

Then argue your case, but let's leave off the ad hominem attacks.

Wherever my assertions come from, what do you care? Your facts all came from somewhere else as well, unless you attended the Iran nuclear negotiations, personally. Well, did you? No, you got your "facts" from some media outlet, same as I did. If you choose to believe the lies coming out of the White House, you go right ahead.

Take the Iran nuclear negotiations deal just reached. Iran's President is saying the 5+1 nations agreement means that the world recognizes Iran's right to enrich nuclear material. Which is stunning, because Obama says no such change in the nuclear proliferation treaty has been made, and Iran has no such right.

The ACTUAL terms of the treaty, have not been printed by any outlet I have found.

I've heard three interpretations of the inspections in the treaty:

1) We can inspect two nuclear facilities, every day, if we like, but not the Plutonium enrichment site, or any other site.

2) We can inspect the Plutonium plant, as well as two other facilities, but not the facility where nuclear weapons are believed to be researched and developed in. That site is off limits.

3) We can inspect ONLY sites ACKNOWLEDGED by the Iranian authorities. That means we'll never find a nuclear weapons site, in a million years of inspections. The Iranians will simply not acknowledge that site for inspections.

Which of the above is correct? We don't know. The treaty language could be so ambiguous that it's simply unclear - but without the actual wording, no one knows.

Obama has reached out to the Iranians, as he said he would years ago - fine. The two parts I don't like are:

1) The treaty has not been put out to the media, so we can read it.

2) Obama stiffed our allies, by dealing directly with Iran, without their knowledge, for months before this treaty meeting. The French, Saudi's, and especially Israel, were livid about this. The Saudi's and the Israeli's have now been left with a huge lack of security they must try to mitigate.

I'm expecting this treaty - or is this just an agreement - will have to reach the Congress somehow. Maybe then, we'll find out what the facts really are about this THING.

Allowing nuclear enrichment, in THE COUNTRY that is the worlds biggest supporter of terrorism - by far, (Hezbollah, Hamas, Rev. Guards in Iraq, fighting us, etc.), should be undertaken with a great deal of clarity as to the terms, and complete verification, with unannounced inspections at ANY facility the IAEA wants to inspect, on any day.

[Lamplighter]

...If you choose to believe the lies coming out of the White House, you go right ahead.
<snip>
The ACTUAL terms of the treaty, have not been printed by any outlet I have found....

Adak, is there anything even slightly illogical between those two remarks ?
How do you know the White House is lying ?

You also say:

Take the Iran nuclear negotiations deal just reached. Iran's President is saying
the 5+1 nations agreement means that the world recognizes Iran's right to enrich nuclear material.
Which is stunning, because Obama says no such change in the
nuclear proliferation treaty has been made, and Iran has no such right.

NPR News uses similar words, but to different meanings:
Eyder Peralta
November 24, 2013

What You Should Know About The Iran Nuclear Deal
<snip>
— The Fine Print: As the White House explained the deal in a "fact sheet,"
Iran has agreed to halt any enrichment above 5 percent
and [to] neutralize any of its stockpile that is near-20 percent.

Iran has also agreed to "unprecedented transparency and intrusive monitoring" of its nuclear program.
In return, the U.S. and its partners have agreed to drop some of its sanctions, amounting to about $6 to $7 billion in relief.

— On Some Enrichment, They've Agreed To Disagree:
One of the toughest diplomatic dances that happened in this agreement is about Iran's "right to enrich."
Iran has insisted that the world recognize it has a right to enrich uranium for peaceful means.
The U.S. has insisted that it has never recognized that right for other countries and it would not do so for Iran.

In your opinion, what is "the White House lie" ?

[Adak]

Originally Posted by Lamplighter

Adak, is there anything even slightly illogical between those two remarks ?
How do you know the White House is lying ?

Do you believe the lie about the Benghazi attack that killed our Ambassador? You know, the one that Susan Rice was instructed to tell PERSONALLY by Obama?

Ever hear of anybody going to an anti-video demonstration with c4 explosives, RPG launchers, squad level machine guns, and mortars?

Naw, me neither!

The eye-witnesses who survived the attack have been forbidden by the President, to speak of it, with anyone, or face jail time. It's been over a year now. Why do you suppose Obama ordered that?

When the President has personally worked out some "Agreement" with a former enemy, but the full content is not revealed, do you really believe he's telling us ALL the facts about the agreement?

Or do you think he's NOT telling us all the facts? Just the facts that make him look good? You know, because the Democrats have a mid-term election in 2014, and his popularity in the polls, is as low as Bush's ever was. So low, that Democrats voted to change Obamacare, in the House last month. They want to be re-elected, and Obama is becoming radioactive with the voters.

Politicians have a LONG history of outrageous lies to the public, because a lot of what they lied about, wasn't known by the public. Now, we know, if we want to.

One example:
JFK, was a horrible womanizer, who used to bring along his current girl friend, on trips around the country. He infuriated Jackie Kennedy, by including the gf in the reception line, forcing Jackie to shake hands with her. In French, Jackie protested to the French Canadian Mayor of the City they were visiting - then dutifully shook her hand.

The press knew it, the secret service knew it (arranged for it in fact), but was it ever reported in the news?

NEVER!

You also say:


NPR News uses similar words, but to different meanings:
Eyder Peralta
November 24, 2013

In your opinion, what is "the White House lie" ?

The Iranian president announced to a cheering crowd, that the agreement supports Iran's right to have nuclear facilities. But Obama is telling us that Iran still has no right to have nuclear facilities which could create nuclear weapons fuel. But the Plutonium facility is not closing down, and it's not being dismantled either.

Also, the terms of the inspections. Sec. of State Kerry says everything in the agreement will be "verified, verified, verified". But others are saying inspections will be very limited, and never include the suspected nuclear weapons development facility.

And both can't be right.

If Obama had nothing to hide, why wouldn't the agreement be put out in full, to the media, or at least, to Congress, and then to the media?

When politicians hold back info, it's because it's embarrassing to them, or to their party, or both. They'd rather fall back to lying.

Like Clinton saying he "didn't have sex with that woman". His defense: "It depends what you definition of is (having sex), is".

And Republicans lie just as much, unfortunately. Look at Senator Edwards - his wife is dying of cancer, and still supporting him on his Presidential nomination campaign. Only to find out he's had a mistress for years, and one or two kids with the mistress.

Mostly, politicians don't lie. They "shave" the truth, to make themselves look good, and simply leave off the bad truths, and hope you won't find it.

The famous "Gulf of Tonkin Incident" that lead to our going into the Vietnam War, never happened - total fabrication to justify fighting the communist take over of a VERY corrupt and murderous, South Vietnam gov't.

Net result: 50,000 + American soldiers killed.

That's what I believe Obama and Kerry are doing here, with the Iran negotiations. They are shaving the truth, so they don't look bad, but it won't end well. It puts all of the Sunni Muslim countries around Iran (notably Saudi Arabia, etc.), and Israel, in a security nightmare.

[xoxoxoBruce]

Originally Posted by Adak

Then argue your case, but let's leave off the ad hominem attacks.

I have argued my case, repeatedly. I've spent hours rounding up verifiable facts, with links to the sources, crossed the T's and dotted the I's. But you know what, it's a waste of my fucking time. The Breitbart foot soldiers won't acknowledge verifiable facts, they'll just spout another outrageous "fact" fabricated from whole cloth or so twisted it's mom wouldn't know it.

The ACTUAL terms of the treaty, have not been printed by any outlet I have found.

This is true, but it seems that hasn't stopped a shitload of people weighing in on what they think about the agreement.

All the clowns are playing to their minions, whether it be Islamic Clerics, Likud, the tea party, or whatever. They must keep the minions entertained.