Let's talk about Israel and Palestine...

[Undertoad]

No innocent person deserves to die - this should be the fundamental driver behind anything the West decides to do to help resolve a situation that it is abundantly clear the two factions directly involved cannot.

Were you aware of this? The dying Gazans, they're almost all young males. Which can't possibly be true if you believe Israel is targeting, like, everyone:

http://time.com/3035937/gaza-israel-...an-casualties/

The demographic analysis of the fatalities in the Gaza conflict has limitations. It can’t identify who is or isn’t a combatant. But the spike in fatalities among males starting in their late teens and peaking in their early to mid-twenties, and the divergence of the pattern of fatalities from the demographic pattern of the population, raises considerable doubt about claims that as many as 75% or more of the fatalities are non-combatants. In light of evidence—provided by groups that monitor Arabic language media (like the Middle East Media Research Institute)—that Hamas has instructed Gazans to describe anyone killed as a civilian, journalists have a responsibility to convey this uncertainty to their audiences and not present figures provided by Hamas and Hamas-affiliated sources as unqualified fact.

Reported by an American non-Jew, if that's something you think is important.

[BigV]

Originally Posted by Undertoad

Were you aware of this? The dying Gazans, they're almost all young males. Which can't possibly be true if you believe Israel is targeting, like, everyone:

http://time.com/3035937/gaza-israel-...an-casualties/

Reported by an American non-Jew, if that's something you think is important.

I read your link. I found no support for your statement anywhere. Could you explain why you came to that conclusion please?

***

This was from your link though:

Children, here defined as those under age 17, represented 194 of fatalities, 20% of the total. Any child fatality is a tragedy, but it is important to note that children make up over half the population of Gaza.

If I take your point that the Israelis are being specific and intentional, not "indiscriminate", how in the world can this be justified?

I take that back, suggesting that you justify the actions of the armed forces of a foreign country. That's unfair. But it is also wrong. I am struggling and failing to express my shock and disbelief at the inconsistency, the hypocrisy here. Asymmetrical warfare is a phrase that makes me want to wash my mouth with soap. "You kill one of mine, I kill twenty of yours." J.F.C.

I have lost a lot of respect for all sides in this conflict, those claiming to represent authority and responsibility for what's happening, but that loss is not equal. It is proportional to how much respect I had before this last conflagration. It is proportional to how much power they have. And Israel has lost most of my respect in this regard.

I hold them to a higher standard. They have more of everything in this conflict, and they have more responsibility, too. This whole fucking shitshow saddens and sickens me.

[Undertoad]

Originally Posted by BigV

I read your link. I found no support for your statement anywhere. Could you explain why you came to that conclusion please?

Yes, I read and evaluated a bunch of sources for that post but I worked hard to find the source furthest from Israel possible, as two Dwellars have mentioned they do not trust Israeli sources and I should think there are others who feel that way. Then that source (Time) didn't have the detail that those other sources had. So.

Here is a chart comparing the casualty demographics to the actual demographics of Gaza as of late July. You'll notice that young males are pretty much taking the brunt of it. Look at the age 20-24 category in particular. In that age group, women outnumber men by a ratio of 3 to 1. Yet 90% of the casualties in that age group are men. You will have to decide for yourself whether Dana's explanation for this discrepancy explains it. At the very least, it begs the question of why this would be the case if the IDF was bombing everything.

[BigV]

Originally Posted by Undertoad

Yes, I read and evaluated a bunch of sources for that post but I worked hard to find the source furthest from Israel possible, as two Dwellars have mentioned they do not trust Israeli sources and I should think there are others who feel that way. Then that source (Time) didn't have the detail that those other sources had. So.

Here is a chart comparing the casualty demographics to the actual demographics of Gaza as of late July. You'll notice that young males are pretty much taking the brunt of it. Look at the age 20-24 category in particular. In that age group, women outnumber men by a ratio of 3 to 1. Yet 90% of the casualties in that age group are men. You will have to decide for yourself whether Dana's explanation for this discrepancy explains it. At the very least, it begs the question of why this would be the case if the IDF was bombing everything.

I read that page too, before I posted in the first place. Here's a link to a clearer graph. It's the source material for the blog post you quoted.



But I don't see anywhere that supports your claim that women outnumber men three to one. The data I've seen show the ratio to be practically one to one.

Most of the casualties are in the middle of the age range, but there's plenty of spillover into either end. If the bombs and guns and missiles used by Israel are .......

Let me restart.

I think it's clear from the body count on the Gazan side that Israel isn't being too careful who they hit--whatever the reason may be, sloppy, careless, accidental, aggressive, indiscriminate or intentional--whatever. There is no acceptable reason for 109 kids under the age of 10 to be killed. That makes me sick. That makes me sad.

[sexobon]

Originally Posted by BigV

... There is no acceptable reason for 109 kids under the age of 10 to be killed. That makes me sick. That makes me sad. ...

But, but, it's a tradition BigV, handed down to us from your grandparents who supported the same kinds of activities in the past with their tax dollars. They also passed the practice on to the rest of the world. You still love them don't you? Your poo pooing the Israelis seems a little like the pot calling the kettle black: you must be the sensitive one in the family ...

NAPALM STICKS TO KIDS

We shoot the sick, the young, the lame
We do our best to kill and maim
Because the kills all count the same
Napalm sticks to kids

Flying low and feeling mean
See that family by the stream
Drop some napalm, hear them scream
Napalm sticks to kids

Flying low across the trees
Pilots doing what they please
Dropping frags on refugees
Napalm sticks to kids

See those farmers over there
Watch me get them with a pair
Blood and guts everywhere
Napalm sticks to kids

Gooks in the open making hay
But I hear the gunships say
There'll be no Chieu Hois today
Napalm sticks to kids

I've seen it happen only twice
But both times it was mighty nice
Shooting peasants planting rice
Napalm sticks to kids

Drop some H.E. on a farm
It won't do any harm
Just blows away their legs and arms
Napalm sticks to kids

There's a gook on his knees
Launch some flechettes into the breeze
Arms and legs nailed to trees
Napalm sticks to kids

Truck in a sampan sits in the stern
They don't think their bont will burn
Those fucking gooks will never learn
Napalm sticks to kids

A squad of Cong in the grass
But the fighting's long since past
Crispy critters in the mass
Napalm sticks to kids

Gooks down in a .50 pit
Baby sucking its mother's tits
Dow Chemical doesn't give a shit
Napalm sticks to kids

Shoot civilians where they sit
Take some pictures as you split
All your life you'll remember it
Napalm sticks to kids

Napalm, son, it's lots of fun
Dropped by bomb or shot from guns
It gets them all on the run
Napalm sticks to kids

They're in good shape, for the shape they're in
But here's no way that they can win
With napalm running down their chin
Napalm sticks to kids

[Undertoad]

Originally Posted by BigV

Asymmetrical warfare is a phrase that makes me want to wash my mouth with soap. "You kill one of mine, I kill twenty of yours."

Whatever you think of Netanyahu, what do you make of this quote:

The truth is that if Israel were to put down its arms there would be no more Israel. If the Arabs were to put down their arms there would be no more war.

And Sparky, I respectfully ask you to avoid all the "saddens and sickens" kind of stuff. It can a different kind of conversation. I'm only asking.

[BigV]

Originally Posted by Undertoad

Whatever you think of Netanyahu, what do you make of this quote:

The truth is that if Israel were to put down its arms there would be no more Israel. If the Arabs were to put down their arms there would be no more war.

And Sparky, I respectfully ask you to avoid all the "saddens and sickens" kind of stuff. It can a different kind of conversation. I'm only asking.

Well, Sparky, I think it's sad that Netanyahu resorts to sick fear-mongering, however euphonious and poetic-sounding.

What do make of this quote:

President George W. Bush, in an address to a joint session of Congress on September 20, 2001 said, "Either you are with us, or you are with the terrorists."

Same kind of divisive, war-accelerating, jingoism. The purpose of such a statement is not to convey truth, but to justify past and future aggression.

[Griff]

Originally Posted by Undertoad

Whatever you think of Netanyahu, what do you make of this quote:

The truth is that if Israel were to put down its arms there would be no more Israel. If the Arabs were to put down their arms there would be no more war.

V didn't answer so I'll try to form one. Would the Arabs get their homeland if they put down their arms? Obviously not. Whoever disarms is dead. Each can only get a deal if they can prove they can kill the other at a level that is unacceptable. That's why the Arabs inside Palestine (for lack of a better label) will lose, they don't have the population or arms to hurt Israel enough to force a deal. The Arabs outside might but the Bush destabilization makes that an unreadable mess.