Law Enforcment

[Spexxvet]

Originally Posted by Big Sarge

Happy Monkey - Do you need me to continue to break down each incident? Hart does nothing but try to spin partial facts and trigger words.

Sarge, that's a lot of excusing and rationalizing you've done there.

[Big Sarge]

Originally Posted by Spexxvet

Sarge, that's a lot of excusing and rationalizing you've done there.

Hart is espousing the idea our legal system is rigged because a minority faction is unhappy with some verdicts. Plus, she doesn't seem to care about facts in cases.

[Spexxvet]

Originally Posted by Big Sarge

Hart is espousing the idea our legal system is rigged because a minority faction is unhappy with some verdicts. Plus, she doesn't seem to care about facts in cases.

Or there's systemic/institutional bias. Possible, no?

[Undertoad]

Originally Posted by Spexxvet

Or there's systemic/institutional bias. Possible, no?

If there is this bias, let us prove it out. What we have are selected anecdotes about incidents, which are heartbreaking in every way. But not really proof.

I just heard of one that happened two miles from my home town, just last year. As kids, we rode bikes right near where this happened.

The following is a true story. It is an anecdote. It proves nothing:

This cop pulls a guy over for an expired inspection sticker: two months out of inspection.

The guy is age 59, and there's 6 inches of snow on the ground... but he gets out of the car and starts to try to run. For no reason at all, with no evidence at all, the cop decides he has a gun. The cop tasers him, and he lands face down in the snow. He lands with his hands up, but the cop continues to taser him, over and over and over, and he goes into convulsions; and, naturally, his hands drop down. At that point, the cop shoots him. In the back.

He didn't have a gun. And his jacket was zipped up, so it would have been tricky to reach for one.

In this case, they prosecuted the cop; but you know a central Pennsylvania jury would not convict a police officer. The cop even decided to go back to work - and would have - until the community got together and fought it.

Had you heard of this? I hadn't heard of it until today. Why haven't we heard of this?

Cos the full story doesn't affect the current narrative, so it's not interesting. So people don't care and so it doesn't make national news. Full story is here.

You may watch the bodycam footage if you like that sort of thing. It's pretty frickin' horrible. But like the nature videos, sometimes you have to see and acknowledge what life is. Especially if you wish to speak to it.

[Big Sarge]

Originally Posted by Undertoad

If there is this bias, let us prove it out. What we have are selected anecdotes about incidents, which are heartbreaking in every way. But not really proof.

I just heard of one that happened two miles from my home town, just last year. As kids, we rode bikes right near where this happened.

The following is a true story. It is an anecdote. It proves nothing:

This cop pulls a guy over for an expired inspection sticker: two months out of inspection.

The guy is age 59, and there's 6 inches of snow on the ground... but he gets out of the car and starts to try to run. For no reason at all, with no evidence at all, the cop decides he has a gun. The cop tasers him, and he lands face down in the snow. He lands with his hands up, but the cop continues to taser him, over and over and over, and he goes into convulsions; and, naturally, his hands drop down. At that point, the cop shoots him. In the back.

He didn't have a gun. And his jacket was zipped up, so it would have been tricky to reach for one.

In this case, they prosecuted the cop; but you know a central Pennsylvania jury would not convict a police officer. The cop even decided to go back to work - and would have - until the community got together and fought it.

Had you heard of this? I hadn't heard of it until today. Why haven't we heard of this?

Cos the full story doesn't affect the current narrative, so it's not interesting. So people don't care and so it doesn't make national news. Full story is here.

You may watch the bodycam footage if you like that sort of thing. It's pretty frickin' horrible. But like the nature videos, sometimes you have to see and acknowledge what life is. Especially if you wish to speak to it.

I'm not comfortable with that shooting, but I'm not ready to throw out our jurisprudence system over it. Because she was acquitted, was there any rioting and looting in the streets? Did they assassinate any police officers over this verdict?

[Spexxvet]

Originally Posted by Undertoad

Had you heard of this? I hadn't heard of it until today. Why haven't we heard of this? Cos the full story doesn't affect the current narrative, so it's not interesting. So people don't care and so it doesn't make national news.

The people who value human life care. The people who expect those with authority to not abuse it care. "Why haven't we heard of this?" Because the group that is publicizing cops killing blacks is publicizing cops killing blacks. Cops misbehaving can be publicized by another group. FWIW, I remember that when it was reported.

Originally Posted by Big Sarge

Throughout the whole US with African Americans actively participating in said bias? Don't forget these juries and prosecutor offices have African American serving on them.

Black cops can have institutional bias against black citizens.

http://www.vox.com/2015/5/7/8562077/...-implicit-bias

Originally Posted by Big Sarge

I'm not comfortable with that shooting,

Well, it's refreshing to see that you don't just blindly defend ...

Originally Posted by Big Sarge

but I'm not ready to throw out our jurisprudence system over it.

Oop - there it is.

Originally Posted by Big Sarge

Because she was acquitted, was there any rioting and looting in the streets? Did they assassinate any police officers over this verdict?

I guess White Lives Matter™ isn't doing their job very well, are they?

When (insert special group here) are killed by cops in the proportion that young black men are, that group will react in a similar way. Jews avenged the Holocaust, the French Resistance fought Vichy France, Palestinians fight Israel, etc. When a group feels oppressed, they lash out. I'm not condoning it.

The Police position can be A - "we're justified in what we've done and will continue" (and kill even more young black men as they crack down), B - "we've made mistakes and will take steps to correct our behavior" (and kill fewer black men, or at least penalize cops who are doing it wrong), or C - "we're going to stop doing our job - see how you like society with no policing". I hope they choose B.

[henry quirk]

"you have very high standards. You insist on "proof" before you'll accept that it exists"

This is as it should be, don't you think?

When life or livelihood is at stake, shouldn't the bar be set high? Shouldn't evidences be offered that are indisputable, that can't be widely (mis)interpreted?

If Joe, a black man, is accused of murder, is it not the obligation of the accuser to 'prove' it?

If Joe, the cop, is accused of bias, accused of abusing his lent power, it s not the obligation of the accuser to 'prove' it?

If institutional bias is claimed, is it not the obligation of the claimant to, in the least, offer sumthin' compelling, unambiguous, and direct as evidence?

There are bad cops, bad whites, bad blacks, bad asians, bad dems, bad repubs, bad christians, bad jews, bad muslims, bad atheists, and on and on...comes down to this: there's seven billion people on the planet and a sizable chunk of them are dumbasses, jackasses, and nutjobs...bad eggs who do bad things...such folks cobble together reasons for doin' what they do (race, religion, politics, money, land, sex, and on and on) but these are just the justifcations...strip those away and the dumbasses, jackasses, and nujobs will still do the bad things.

It's a mistake on the part of well-intentioned folks to give weight to cobbled together reasons (justifications)...doin' that opens the door to givin' dumbasses, jackasses, and nutjobs an out...it's the equivelent of trying to understand or advocate for a rabid dog instead of just identifying it then shooting it.

[BigV]

Originally Posted by Undertoad

If there is this bias, let us prove it out. What we have are selected anecdotes about incidents, which are heartbreaking in every way. But not really proof.

--snip.

What constitutes proof of bias?

I want to have an idea of what you consider the finish line is. Evidence of systemic, institutional racial bias in our society *abounds*, but you choose your words carefully, you have very high standards. You insist on "proof" before you'll accept that it exists.

You tell me what your snipe looks like, and I'll go hunting for it.

[Big Sarge]

Originally Posted by Spexxvet

Or there's systemic/institutional bias. Possible, no?

Throughout the whole US with African Americans actively participating in said bias? Don't forget these juries and prosecutor offices have African American serving on them.