1/23: Kabul dog fight

[mulgorod]

Originally posted by jeni
first of all, to eat meat is part of what is called the food chain. i eat meat because it is natural. it helps that i like the taste of meat.

Hmmm... I thought that what made people special, above animals, so to speak, was that we could engage in thoughtful discussion of issues, and behave in some way other than what is natural, if we deem it necessary.

second of all, we don't put the deaths of the cows and chickens and whatever other meat we eat out for the public to watch and get enjoyment from.

Oh, so it's Ok, as long as you don't have to look at it? I've thought for a while that it might be a good idea to make people slaughter an animal, in order to be licenced to eat meat. It would combat the sort of happiness in ignorance that people enjoy today, and I know that I eat less meat ever since my first hunt.

third of all, as dave mentioned, we don't train the cows to kill one another.

Cow kills a cow, man kills a cow... what's the diff? Yeah, being gnawed to death by the large flat teeth of herbivore would be a slow and painful way to go, but the alternative isn't terribly pleasant either.

but i certainly hope you are a vegetarian if you think the KKK is bad.

I think I've explained my position to the point that a reasonable person can see where I'm coming from, even if they don't agree. If you'd care to explain that last comment, I'd be willing to sit and listen.

I'm tired and I have to sleep, but I'll respond to one real quick, which I think you misunderstood.

Next, you refuted that meat was necessary. Then you acknowledged that the same stuff in meat can be had from vitamins (pills, I presumed you meant) and vegetables. Which is it?

What I said was, while meat is unnecessary, it certainly is not "for pleasure only". It <b>does</b> serve a purpose other than pleasure. My example was: blowjobs are for pleasure only. This is true. They are not beneficial (except in an emotional-health way) in any manner. They are for pleasure. One can not get any significant quantities of vitamins and minerals from receiving a blowjob. One can, however, get these from eating meat. So while it is indeed a luxury, it is not one that serves no purpose other than entertainment.

I hope that clarifies that point. I will respond to the rest tomorrow.

[jeni]

...behave in some way other than what is natural, if we deem it necessary.

and i don't deem it necessary to stop the natural act of eating meat. simple. i said "it helps that i like the taste." if i didn't like the taste, i wouldn't eat meat. hence my not eating fish. but that isn't the only reason i eat meat. i choose to eat meat for other reasons, which, to list, would be redundant. i also don't gripe to my vegetarian friends about why they don't eat meat. it's a personal preference, and they have their reasons. such as i have mine for eating how i do.

Oh, so it's Ok, as long as you don't have to look at it?

no. i didn't say that. i said that we did not put those slaughters on display for the public to watch and get enjoyment from. if we did, it would make me feel much more sad about the way the country and its inhabitants decide to make money. i think that watching the death of anything for enjoyment is sickening. will i eat meat? yes. it is natural for me to eat meat. i get lots of iron from it. do i think that the way slaughterhouses go about killing the animals is particularly humane? no. do i want to pay money to watch it? absolutely not. i don't think it is OKAY. but it is not going to stop me from eating meat. i'm not on a fucking crusade, here. i just have an opinion about dog fights. if i were out to stop them, instead of just talking about them with you online, you could very well counter everything i said if you liked. but i'm not out to stop them. i just would not choose to participate in one, because i think it is wrong to brainwash something.

...happiness in ignorance that people enjoy today, and I know that I eat less meat ever since my first hunt.

happiness in ignorance? i'm not ignorant of what goes on in slaughterhouses. i know plenty about that, just as i have sat and watched a deer die after my friend's dad put a bullet in its neck. and i watched him cut slits in its legs, shove a nice thick metal rod through, and hang it upside down for the blood to drain out. and i looked into its dead black eyes. you cannot assume that just because i eat meat, i know nothing about what goes on "behind the scenes".

cow kills a cow, man kills a cow... what's the diff?

the difference is that you are taking what i said and making something totally different out of it. i specifically said that i thought it was not right to breed, raise, and train a dog to fight. i have watched plently of programs about the practice, and i know enough to know that i think it's unfair.

look, it's the same as this. the KKK has specific women set aside for breeding. when those babies are born, they are raised and taught to believe what the KKK tells them. i also think this is not right. do you know why? because that child will never have a chance to think on its own without getting bitched at.

much the same as those dogs won't ever be able to live normal lives with little boys named timmy taking them for walks and hugging them before bed at nine o'clock. you get the idea?

[Nothing But Net]

I eat meat because I like the taste...

I don't eat fish because I don't...

[jaguar]

One can not get any significant quantities of vitamins and minerals from receiving a blowjob.

Giver or reciever? *laughz
Your analergy is flawed in the sense that, unless i've been missing something, you don't have to kill anything to get a blowjob.

[mulgorod]

Ok, jeni. I don't have a problem with you eating meat. As I said, I do too. And I guess I owe you an apology for making assumptions about what your experiences with animal slaughter and hunting is, and kind of, sort of, indirectly calling you ignorant. So I'm sorry.

The point of my original statement was not that we should all become vegetarians, but that we shouldn't be so quick to judge the activities of other cultures. I think it's possible to draw a parallel to the activities of another culture that we consider barbaric, and an activity of our own culture, which we consider normal. Jaguar, judging from his response, managed to pick that up fairly quickly, and sums the conclusion up for me quite nicely, even if he was tipsy.

Dham, I now understand what you were saying about meat vs. blowjobs, but it's a small point that meat does have beneficial effects besides the sheer joy of consumption when those beneficial effects can be gotten elsewhere, arguably without significantly greater output of effort (yes I understand being a healthy vegetarian requires some education, but actually going to a grocery store and buying a cucumber is no more difficult than the same for a steak). The significant point, is that it is truly unnecessary. As are dog fights, though watching one won't get you any iron or protein.

Originally posted by jeni

look, it's the same as this. the KKK has specific women set aside for breeding. when those babies are born, they are raised and taught to believe what the KKK tells them. i also think this is not right. do you know why? because that child will never have a chance to think on its own without getting bitched at.

much the same as those dogs won't ever be able to live normal lives with little boys named timmy taking them for walks and hugging them before bed at nine o'clock. you get the idea?

Yeah, I get what you're saying. But I think it's a bit of a stretch. You've expanded the scope of the argument to include humans, and I never said I thought that humans were equivalent to animals. I hunt animals, I wouldn't hunt humans.

[Undertoad]

Well there ya go. In our society, we now have a weird mix of teaching of respect for other cultures and a fierce lack of respect for other cultures.

So where does one draw the line and say that a cultural practice is something to direct political pressure against? Apartheid? African genital mutilation? Chinese abortions to force famliy size limits?

[russotto]

Originally posted by mulgorod

beleif, cows are not dumb. When the first blood is spilled, they smell it, and they freak. They are scared. When there's 300 plus cows to kill, the last one gets to spend all day in sheer terror of what's to come.

Cows also freak when a 15 pound dog barks at them. I've seen it. Pretty funny watching a bunch of cows get scared off by a dog 1% of any of their weights.

I just got some porterhouse yesterday. Bet it'll be good broiled with a little salt and pepper.

Originally posted by jaguar
Giver or reciever? *laughz
Your analergy is flawed in the sense that, unless i've been missing something, you don't have to kill anything to get a blowjob.

Are you Australian or retarded? (hehehe, SNL reference for those who haven't seen it)

Okay. How are you missing this?

It is not about the killing. The dude (dudette?) said that, and I quote, the consumption of animals is "sheerly for human pleasure".

That would imply that the <b>only</b> purpose it serves is to provide pleasure.

I say that this is false. It also provides another purpose - getting minerals. To show an example of something that is "sheerly for human pleasure", I referenced a <b>blowjob</b>. It is not about whether or not something dies in the process - it is about whether or not said action is <b>"sheerly for human pleasure"</b>.

Does that clarify a little bit more?

mulgorod -

I never said being a vegetarian wouldn't be easy. It would be, so long as one can control their temptations. My only point was to refute your assertion that eating meat was "sheerly for human pleasure". Now I have done that, so I will shut up.

Undertoad -

Japscat. That needs some intervention

[BrianR]

Originally posted by jaguar
Giver or reciever? *laughz
Your analergy is flawed in the sense that, unless i've been missing something, you don't have to kill anything to get a blowjob.

You've never met my ex, mate.

Brian

[jeni]

we shouldn't be so quick to judge the activities of other cultures. I think it's possible to draw a parallel to the activities of another culture that we consider barbaric

and i agree with you on that point. we shouldn't be so quick to call what another culture does wrong, because other cultures have their own rituals. that is what makes them who they are, so be it.

but dog fights happen in the US too. people pay money to bet on which dog will lose. i'm not saying that afghanis are horrible people for participating in such an event, i am saying that i think making dogs do things other than what comes naturally to them, from birth, is pretty cruel. no matter what country it takes place in. i pretty much ignored jag's post, because he had no idea what i was talking about, and i'm not going to get into petty baby talk trying to explain to someone who assumes something in the first place.

the KKK example was brought about to show that humans think it is cruel to brainwash children. look back in the threads for the picture of the little boy who was a suicide bomber. it was brought up time and time again how horrible it was to teach a child that it is right to kill other people, and in the process get injured or killed themselves...it's the same thing, just a different animal.

who are human beings to say what a dog can and cannot do? why should we teach it to attack another animal if that isn't the "norm" for its breed? what if it doesn't want to? we beat it. why? i am willing to bet that the trainers of those dogs don't give the dogs a chance to get away from the training, if they want.

if the animals are domestic, especially, i think we should not train them to rip apart other dogs. if that comes in the wilderness between wolves, fine, because they need to do that to survive. but domestic dogs that should be kept as pets are not meant to tear one another limb from limb.

so yes, human beings THINK, but maybe dogs think just like we do. maybe they think "this sucks. i don't want to be fighting with other dogs." but they can't do anything about it.

and that relates to the children in the KKK because they are brought up to think like KKK members. they don't have a choice to think otherwise, if they so desire, because where are they going to go? they're kids. they need the people around them.

I think what Jen is saying is that the "training" that leads to dogfighting is the dog equivalent of the brainwashing that goes into Palestinian child suicide bombers & KKK children, though since they're not surrounded by as much pure <b>hatred</b>, I think KKK kids are more likely to grow up and realize that their parents are retards.

Her point, then, is that if you think the KKK or suicide bombers are deplorable, you should think that dog fighting is deplorable as well, not necessarily because of the physical toll that is taken on the dogs, but the mental toll as well.

[mulgorod]

Originally posted by jeni

the KKK example was brought about to show that humans think it is cruel to brainwash children. look back in the threads for the picture of the little boy who was a suicide bomber. it was brought up time and time again how horrible it was to teach a child that it is right to kill other people, and in the process get injured or killed themselves...it's the same thing, just a different animal.

Just a different animal? That is as ridiculous as stating that because you eat beef, you should be perfectly Ok with eating babies.

who are human beings to say what a dog can and cannot do? why should we teach it to attack another animal if that isn't the "norm" for its breed? what if it doesn't want to? we beat it. why? i am willing to bet that the trainers of those dogs don't give the dogs a chance to get away from the training, if they want.

That's my point, that's the parallel I'm trying to draw. Who are human beings to say whether a cow lives or dies? Why should we raise it from birth, just so we can feast on it's flesh? What if it won't like that? I'm willing to bet that the cows don't get to go live in the wilderness and take their chances with the wolves, even if they want to.

Not that they'd have much of a chance, now that we have so twisted their genes through selective breeding that they are a horrifying bloated mimic of their true natural selves.

[warch]

So where does one draw the line and say that a cultural practice is something to direct political pressure against?

that's the question. What values are universal enough to be defended universally? I think we need to focus on respecting and defending human rights. The Taliban's culturally justified abuses against women and girls in Afghanistan were for years condemned, yet tolerated, not drawing any real pressure. Had 9/11 not occurred, do you think the US or greater international community would have moved to help free Afghani women? I'm having trouble getting disgusted by fighting dogs when down the street a girl is getting beaten or killed for learning to read or refusing Osama's advances.

I personally don't groove on dog, cock or bull fights, nor WWF, nor boxing. But give me a fiery, equal rumble in the midst of a passionate NHL game...just to vent the tension, stand up for yer guys. I confess, I like!