Chief Illiniwek

[freshnesschronic]

Erm, that wasn't really on topic was it?

[xoxoxoBruce]

Well, it was a lot closer than most threadjacks. It was also right on the money in my opinion.

[ferret88]

Sorry. After I ranted I realised that it was kinda off topic. But the idea is kinda there.

Thanks Bruce.

[piercehawkeye45]

Shawnee, you earlier said that you care less about the mascot (offensiveness wise) and you have some Native American heritage.

I would think it would be more insulting to me if everyone went out of their way to make sure I wasn't offended when I didn't have a strong postion on the argument.

[elSicomoro]

I'm part Native American. To me, the use of Native American symbols and nicknames is just...silly. And improper. I'm not all up in arms over it, but it just seems old and from another era. Retire them...come up with something creative.

Having said that, I don't see any issues with using the team name "Fighting Illini."

[xoxoxoBruce]

Any more silly and improper that using critters that have no concept of sports and games? At least the indians played games. If we're going to be all politically correct and shit, calling the team the Indians should have no connection to, or bearing on, the Native Americans.

[bluecuracao]

Originally Posted by xoxoxoBruce

Any more silly and improper that using critters that have no concept of sports and games? At least the indians played games. If we're going to be all politically correct and shit, calling the team the Indians should have no connection to, or bearing on, the Native Americans.

See, this is problem. These "Indian" mascots just perpetuate stereotypes, and keep the uninformed from moving past their antiquated views of actual Indians.

(Indians *still* play games, by the way--football, basketball, soccer, chess, etc. )

[xoxoxoBruce]

Originally Posted by bluecuracao

See, this is problem. These "Indian" mascots just perpetuate stereotypes, and keep the uninformed from moving past their antiquated views of actual Indians.

(Indians *still* play games, by the way--football, basketball, soccer, chess, etc. )

I said the critters don't play sports. You know, critters, Bears, Lions, Eagles.

When was the last time you saw a real native American that looked anything like those sports mascots. When did they ever look like those sports mascots? There's no relation and anyone with half a brain knows that.

My Grandparents came from Scotland. I'd like a nickel for every time I've seen or heard a characterization of Scots. They weren't exactly flattering, either. Do I get my casino now?

[elSicomoro]

Bruce, there are pretty significant differences between animals and people. And huge--HUGE--differences between the ways Scots/Irish/Italians/etc. were treated when they came here and the near-elimination of Native Americans.

If there is a mascot that makes Native Americans look good, I'd love to see it.

My former college (Southeast Missouri State University) tried to put a positive spin on their old name--Indians/Otakhians (for the women). It was supposed to honor the Natives that lived in the area back in the day. Of course, they used stereotypical renderings of these mascots. They even had Chief Sagamore until the mid-80s. They did away with the names in 2004.

A good chunk of the Native American population on the East Coast was wiped out or moved westward during the settlement of the country. The ones that were left were smart to shut the fuck up and/or assimilate. Assimilation is a good thing--to a point.

[freshnesschronic]

Originally Posted by bluecuracao

See, this is problem. These "Indian" mascots just perpetuate stereotypes, and keep the uninformed from moving past their antiquated views of actual Indians.

(Indians *still* play games, by the way--football, basketball, soccer, chess, etc. )

Gooood point.

[xoxoxoBruce]

What's a good point, they play games or it perpetuates stereotypes?

Did you ever stop to think the mascots promote a better stereotype than the general perception by the public?
Talking with local people I worked with, throughout the western part of the US, their perception leaned toward "drunken Ira Hayes".
I was really surprised because, being from the east, I hadn't been exposed to that attitude.
Of course in the east, Indians didn't enter the conversations very often, other than early history or sports(more recently casinos). That's not because they aren't here, it's because in the east, they have assimilated. In most cases you wouldn't know their background, they're just Americans.

[elSicomoro]

PC isn't always a bad thing. We don't call blacks "Negroes" or "Coloreds" anymore...at least, most of us don't.

[Clodfobble]

Originally Posted by sycamore

PC isn't always a bad thing. We don't call blacks "Negroes" or "Coloreds" anymore...at least, most of us don't.

...and in another 50 years, calling someone "black" will be horribly offensive and there will be some brand new name we should be using. In the 60s, most black people preferred the term "Negro" and actually felt "black" was the offensive term. There are always new names for things, doesn't change the intent--or lack thereof--behind it.

[elSicomoro]

Originally Posted by Clodfobble

...and in another 50 years, calling someone "black" will be horribly offensive and there will be some brand new name we should be using.

Times change, people change. Native American mascots and names have come under increasing scrutiny over the past 20 or so years. While there may no be offense meant, the offense is still there. Would we call a team "Darkies" even if it had no racial connotation? I don't think so.

[elSicomoro]

We don't really know why school always choose what they choose, given how much goes on behind the scenes. I'm sure that some teams choose Native American names out of respect. But I suspect that more often than not, they're based on stereotypes.

Chief Illiniwek looked like a tool to me. So did the mascot renderings that SEMO used. Not to mention, that stupid Tomahawk Chop in Atlanta.

Even if we're talking portrayals, there are still huge differences. It's like comparing apples and oranges.