Can We Call This Progress?

[coberst]

Originally Posted by Undertoad

Now on three other forums

I too would consider myself to be a self-actualized self-learner, but you have now made me skeptical about using the prefix self in everything. It's nice you are interested in things - "the unexamined life not worth living" and all that.

But we do notice that you are fully concerned with self and not so concerned with other. For example, in the above post you wrote an essay about what you are concerned about, but failed to actually answer Bruce's question. Those posters whom I have seen doing this sort of thing seem to be smart but not wise.

You go to all sorts of forums with no interest in the people there, only looking to poot your essay around. That's fine, and if it's written well we like it, but you're missing the perspective of hundreds of people, available free for the asking, who have seen so much of the world that you haven't. Wouldn't you like to see how rugged individualists can use an ancient tractor and saw to cut up a load of wood in the back country? Wouldn't that be a nice addition to your understanding of the world?

I seek to make my readers conscious of important ideas. Consciousness of ideas is the first step toward gaining the knowledge and understanding required to comprehend those problems and possibly in dialogue with others to solve the problems discovered.

[Undertoad]

Originally Posted by coberst

I seek to make my readers conscious of important ideas. Consciousness of ideas is the first step toward gaining the knowledge and understanding required to comprehend those problems and possibly in dialogue with others to solve the problems discovered.

In other words: most people are so stupid they didn't know they had problems, but you are looking to A) explain to them what their problems are, and then B) to solve them.

(Your plan might not work here, because as you can see, I have a Bullshit-to-English dictionary.)

[DanaC]

I'm an individualist....I'm also a collectivist. Certain aspects of life foster individualism and, in my opinion that can be a good thing. Some aspects of life benefit from, and therefore foster, a collectivist approach. 'Rugged individualism' is nice and catchy but overly simplistic in the answers it provides to life's questions. We cannot all be expert at everything, unless the range of things that one can be expert in, and the extent of expertise that's possible, is awfully small. We can all gain expertise in general herbcraft....but we cannot all be experts in brain surgery. Even in the most individualist societies (such as frontier America) not all knowledge is held by everyone: indeed, such universality of knowledge would require far more in the way of collectivism than it would in the way of individualism.

In an effort to understand where we are now it might help to start back in time and move forward. In frontier days each person was very much an individual. Rugged individualism was a popular expression. Each man and woman was a jack-of-all-trades and master of none. Each husband and wife was a team that together could and had to do everything that was needed.

A jack-of-all-[subsistence]trades and a master of none. Those husband and wife teams would no doubt have found it comforting to know that there was a trained doctor nearby should they fall ill with something that cannot be treated with local herbs. I would imagine very few of them were self-sufficient to the point that they never had to engage in purchasing goods or services.

I think that we, women and men, have become chess pieces. We have become objects to be manipulated by the market and the corporation.

So it has always been and so it will always be. The chess players vary, but ordinary people have ever been at the mercy of those who shape the laws and economy in which they live. Look at the origins of your ruggedly individual colonists and you will see many for whom their presence in the New World was a consequence of the chess games of mighty men. At every point in America's history there have been chess players and chess pieces, just as there have been in my country's history. All that differs is the degree to which people are vulnerable to such games: the degree to which their individuality protects them.

Do you feel like a cipher in our culture?

No. I feel like an individual, an individual whose relationship to the culture she lives in is uniquely hers. I feel valued in my individuality; but more importantly, I feel valued as a part of the collective whole. It is my place within that collective whole which means that my individuality is respected, valued and protected.

[coberst]

Joe

The knowledge about human nature that is available but remains virtually unknown to most Americans is that knowledge that will allow one to answer the question "Why do humans do the things they do that are so harmful to all humans?"

Becker gives us a good look at such knowledge in his books.

[regular.joe]

Originally Posted by coberst

Joe

The knowledge about human nature that is available but remains virtually unknown to most Americans is that knowledge that will allow one to answer the question "Why do humans do the things they do that are so harmful to all humans?"

Becker gives us a good look at such knowledge in his books.

Come now, you have answered none of my questions. You've only referred to another person who wrote a book. You are not coming across as very self actualized.

You would have me believe you know something that I don't, come forward and don't be vague. Please answer all of my original questions.

[Griff]

Originally Posted by coberst

Do you feel like a cipher in our culture?

I'm beginning to see how you might feel like a cipher. Maybe you should do something.

[Flint]

coberst! Quick, take my hand--I can lead you out of this maze...I'm a friend! You've got to trust me--there's not much time! :::slap::: Pay attention, man! This is vitally important. You have used the term "American" to define an intellectual class. Explain...think fast! . . . Bzzzt! Wrong! . . . Bzzzt! Wrong! . . . Trick question--there is no valid explanation.

And that's why everything else you have to say will be dead-on-arrival. People will think one of two things, #1 you're a self-loathing American who projects the microcosm of your experience upon the canvas which occupies your field of vision, ie.e the surface area inside your own borders (Herman Hesse was raised in the culture that gave us [Godwin deleted] but he didn't obsess on German intellectual inferiority in his novels) ; or #2 you're an America-hating European who uses America as a boogey-man for everything that's wrong with the world.

I don't think that either one of those positions describes where you're coming from--but it doesn't matter, because when you go throwing around "Americans this" and "Americans that" it sets off a red flag. Everybody knows that there are problems in modern society, just as there are problems in every society; and America being one of both of the above, it is going to have problems. Is that due to a magical force-field that renders American people a hive-mind philosophy? I might agree with that, except I'm an American! In order to posit that theory, I have to make the assumption of my own unique qualities.

And the point is that I can't logically attribute to myself a quality which renders me capable of analyzing the culture (global human culture) of which I am a part without admitting that I am a part of it. See? I'm here to make you conscious of important ideas. Oh, wait. Now it seems like I'm a pompous ass, and I'm calling you a fool. Hmmm. Well, I'm sure when you do it, it's different. After all, I'm just a loathesome American.

[Sundae]

Coberst, to expand on Flint's point from my own perspective. I live in Britain and most of the people I know are neither anti nor pro American. But if they (I) have an issue it is that Americans sometimes appear to think the rest of the world - savour that phrase - doesn't count.

If you're going to denigrate every single "developed" country for their lifestyle, at least acknowledge them. If your issue is only with Americans then you might find a better audience on a US-only forum. This forum is US-based, but thanks to UT and the intelligence and experience of the American Dwelars it is a welcome home to a small but vocal "foreign" contingent, whose views are appreciated if not always accepted.

Bottom line - do your homework rather then posting a set piece. This is a community, not a soapbox.

Although I admit I did read your post with interest and if you can discuss your views intelligently I don't necessarily need the elusive dialogue to take them on board. Welcome.

[Flint]

My only gripe with the foreign contingent is that you put a u in color and you call the wrong thing football.

Edit:
Seriously, though, it would never occur to me that this is an "American" board (I would think the mere idea of the internet itself would preclude that possibility); if anything, I feel that there is a predominate number of people here from the Philidelphia area (a residual quality of the Cellar's origins).

I mean...let's get down to nuts and bolts here, and attack the intellectual properties of people from the geographic region surrounding Philidelphia.

Edit:
First we have to determine the exact center of Philidelhia, and then measure the distance of each user from that point. A sliding scale of intellectual properties will be applied using an algorithm based on physical proximity to ground zero. Line up now, or be rounded up forcefully by our intellectual jackboots. This is for your own good (the first step toward gaining the knowledge and understanding required to comprehend [your] problems).

[Sundae]

Originally Posted by Flint

Seriously, though, it would never occur to me that this is an "American" board (I would think the mere idea of the internet itself would preclude that possibility

With respect, this is because you are American.
This is not a criticism of the board - I've already said that it's very welcoming and respectful.

But there are many things I come across here that I would simply not have heard of on a British board. And many thoughts/ attitudes/ beliefs pass without comment, or are as accepted as mainstream that would not be in Britain.

Monster has often stepped in to translate or explain that something I think is exceptional is in fact considered normal.

It is a positive thing - it certainly broadens my mind. But trust me, a majority American board is a very different place for a foreigner. T'internet only aids communication, it doesn't homogenise.

[Flint]

Originally Posted by Sundae Girl

With respect, this is because you are American.
...

What? No, it's because the internet has no physical location.

Originally Posted by Sundae Girl

...
T'internet only aids communication, it doesn't homogenise.

It doesn't have to homogenize; it's all-inclusive.

[Clodfobble]

Originally Posted by coberst

I seek to make my readers conscious of important ideas.

Good thing I am not one of your readers--I have yet to read all of, or even a majority of, any of your posts. However, you are now one of my readers. Sucka!

I won't tell you what I seek to make my readers do; that would spoil the surprise.

[Flint]

Shit! Now I'm one of your readers too!

[lookout123]

I R her reader and so can U!

[xoxoxoBruce]

I for one, welcome the Clodfobble overlord.... ess.
Beat me, whip me, make me read bad posts.