Frineds, Family and Love!

[JBKlyde]

It's called Grace. Life^2-Death=EternalLifeXB

[BigV]

I'll open the question to all the dwellars, since I find your answer unhelpful. I'm pretty sure I know what Grace is; undeserved mercy. What I still don't get is how it is that God's mercy (grace) is sometimes bestowed (God picks me up) and sometimes withheld (God is stopped) (which I find...incomprehensible still). In the one case you say it is undeserved (grace is mercy that is undeserved) because I've fallen short and in the other case it is *also* undeserved because I've sinned.

I think we can both agree that I live in a continuous state of undeservedness. I am continuously falling short, indeed, continuously sinning. Any mercy I get will be the very definition of gracce--undeserved. But I am still mystified why I sometimes receive it and sometimes not, since I'm always undeserving.

Frankly, this doesn't feel good. It feels arbitrary. Less charitably, it feels tautological--this is not a compliment. I sin, I fall short, I am undeserving, all the time. Sometimes I get mercy sometimes not. And your explanation is that when I get mercy it is because I only fell short. And when I don't get mercy it is because I sinned. But there's no explanation of the differences! Where is the cause and where is the effect? For that matter, where is the personal responsibility?

[JBKlyde]

God sees us as his children. You are viewing God not as a Father Figure but as an over seer. He is that as well, however, he will let his children make mistakes so that we can learn. God wants us to grow into his kingdom. Kinda like money, it's so much better to have money if you feel like you've earned it rather than cheated your way to the top.

[DanaC]

Originally Posted by JBKlyde

I think that the most amazing thing about God is that he takes whats NOT perfect and perfects it, if you are a true believer one of the first things you should notice, About the God of Creation, is that where you fall short he picks up. Only "SIN" can stop God from reaching you and once your saved your forgiven of sin and God becomes the JOY of your life.

If he made us in his image, and he is perfect, then how is that there is imperfection in us for him to perfect. How is it that we, who are created in his image are 'NOT perfect'?

[Clodfobble]

Originally Posted by BigV

I'll open the question to all the dwellars, since I find your answer unhelpful. I'm pretty sure I know what Grace is; undeserved mercy. What I still don't get is how it is that God's mercy (grace) is sometimes bestowed (God picks me up) and sometimes withheld (God is stopped) (which I find...incomprehensible still). In the one case you say it is undeserved (grace is mercy that is undeserved) because I've fallen short and in the other case it is *also* undeserved because I've sinned.

I think we can both agree that I live in a continuous state of undeservedness. I am continuously falling short, indeed, continuously sinning. Any mercy I get will be the very definition of gracce--undeserved. But I am still mystified why I sometimes receive it and sometimes not, since I'm always undeserving.

Frankly, this doesn't feel good. It feels arbitrary. Less charitably, it feels tautological--this is not a compliment. I sin, I fall short, I am undeserving, all the time. Sometimes I get mercy sometimes not. And your explanation is that when I get mercy it is because I only fell short. And when I don't get mercy it is because I sinned. But there's no explanation of the differences! Where is the cause and where is the effect? For that matter, where is the personal responsibility?

From a strictly apologetical standpoint--what I actually believe isn't really relevant to your question--you are misunderstanding the definition of grace. Grace is not God giving you nice things or making your troubles go away. Grace is that you get to go to heaven after you die, even though you were undeserving before you died. Mercy, grace, all of it refers to being saved after your death; i.e., not having to go to hell. The bad things that may or may not happen to you before you die is a whole different issue.

[Pie]

I thought suffering and pain was supposed to be the path to salvation.

[JBKlyde]

If he made us in his image, and he is perfect, then how is that there is imperfection in us for him to perfect. How is it that we, who are created in his image are 'NOT perfect'?

Did you miss the part about "growing" into his kingdom? We are, those who believe, children of God. Your not 100% perfect until you grow up and go to heaven. Your existence as a christian is for the purposes of living and learning.

[Cloud]

I recommend the book, How to Win Friends and Influence People by Dale Carnegie, which you can find at any library. Although a bit dated, and bearing a cheesy title, it's a wonderful book with sensible and practical advise on dealing with people.

[lookout123]

Of course, Carnegie bases most of his ideas on the expectation of a biblical belief so that may not be the point you are trying to get across to this guy.

[Clodfobble]

Originally Posted by Pie

I thought suffering and pain was supposed to be the path to salvation.

Nope, never heard that one. They make it pretty clear that Jesus is the one and only path to salvation, no matter who you are or what you've done (good or bad.)

[Cloud]

He asked for help in making friends. Carnegie espouses the golden rule, which is about as biblical as I get.

[Gravdigr]

Originally Posted by Pie

I thought suffering and pain was supposed to be the path to salvation.

This thread has certain feel about it...where's the wine and crackers?

[Trilby]

WTF are you people on about?

Incomprehensible twaddle.

Sum up, people, sum up!

I don't have all day to read these Unibomber-like manifestos!

Be brief! SUM UP!

[JBKlyde]

What are they saying in that monte python picture??

[Gravdigr]

Originally Posted by JBKlyde

What are they saying in that monte python picture??

I think it's: Pies Iesu Domine, Dona Eis Requiem
................O sweet Lord Jesus, grant them rest;

wiki'd