The morality of war

[Lamplighter]

My question was rhetorical: People are either too far removed from the realities of war to comprehend some necessities, they're deluded into thinking that if wealthy nations which can afford non-combatants set the example then poor desperate movements will follow (apples and oranges); or, they consider soldiers to be a lower cast that's expendable just to ease their consciences.

Originally Posted by orthodoc

Very well said, guys. I agree, it's always happened. And sexobon summarized the issues perfectly.

Rhetorical or not, these two ideas are only balm to sooth a rationalization.

Our "wealthy nation" has declared a never-ending war,
using troops that have volunteered for that duty.
There was/is little or no delusion that Iraq or Afghanistan,
would use the same the same weapons or tactics.

We are no longer fighting the enemy that harmed us on 9/11/01.
We try to separate "taliban" from "Al quada" from "terrorist", but can't.
So now, we are continuing essentially a religious war or moral war,
but in the role of the aggressor.

Soldiers are the tools we use... not because they are lower cast or anything like that.
I, and our nation, say "Thank you for your service" to individuals
and groups in the military, in multitudes of ways, and with sincerity.

But such appreciation also must be earned, over and over again.
In so-called "normal" military actions, it iconically accepts the risk of being wounded or killed.
But it also amounts to refusing to obey an unlawful order.

Actual self-defense is an imminent threat.
Firing a drone's missile into an automobile from a seat
in front of a TV screen somewhere in Texas is killing by guess-work.

Think back to the Viet Nam era...
Returning soldiers were sometimes not given the heartfelt welcome home that previous soldiers had received.
This was due, in part, to our nation perceiving the burning of villages,
and killing of non-combatants as immoral, and as "illegal orders".

More and more our military actions in the middle East are nearing the same judgement.

[sexobon]

Originally Posted by Lamplighter

... So now, we are continuing essentially a religious war or moral war, ...

So now, you can start a clone thread called: The war of morality

[tw]

And so we had to burn the village to save it. How many forgot that lesson?

Once support of the local population is lost, then basic military concepts state, quite clearly, that the war is lost. Completely irrelevant are the number of casualties on either side. Only relevant is who controls the land after all warfare has ended. Once war happens, soldiers lives become secondary to the strategic objective. You may not like it. But in war, your emotions are irrelevant. Only the strategic objective is relevant.

[DanaC]

A soldier firing on a hostile attacker who happens to be a child is one thing. Targeting 'potential' hostiles however...

[ZenGum]

Adult males can be innocent civilians, too, and yet appear "potentially hostile".
However it is that soldiers tell hostile from neutral with adults is how they will do for sub-adults.

[DanaC]

The children used by the Talibs have become combatants. If non-combatant children are targeted as potential combatants, then we have turned them into combatants. We have made them 'child soldiers'.

[footfootfoot]

Originally Posted by DanaC

The children used by the Talibs have become combatants. If non-combatant children are targeted as potential combatants, then we have turned them into combatants. We have made them 'child soldiers'.

OK, so what's your solution?

[DanaC]

Originally Posted by footfootfoot

OK, so what's your solution?

I'm tempted to answer, somewhat flippantly that my solution would be not to get bogged down in unwinnable wars in faraway lands and morally dubious, decade long occupations of other countries. As a starting point. Lots of armies in the world regrettably use child soldiers, but they tend not to be flown about as invasion forces. Aside from some of the particularly messy African conflicts and civil wars, children almost exclusively act on the side of the invaded or occupied.

But given that we are where we are, not where I'd like us to be: I don't have a solution. I just wanted to think about some of the moral and ethical questions the situation raises.

[piercehawkeye45]

Originally Posted by DanaC

But given that we are where we are, not where I'd like us to be: I don't have a solution. I just wanted to think about some of the moral and ethical questions the situation raises.

I know you are just addressing the question Dana, but in my view, expecting moral principles to be followed through in a insurgency vs. counter-insurgency war is similar to expecting boxing rules to be used to a back alley knife fight. It is life or death for both sides so I really don't think they care what some non-soliders (myself included) think about the morality of war when their lives are on the line.

Saying that, I do believe the US and UN should follow moral standards in Afghanistan because of (1) morality (duh!) and (2) it is good PR. The war in Afghanistan was not inherently lost, but lost when we showed the Afghan people we didn't care about them. However, we must be realistic with our policies and they must be reflective of what is happening on the battlefield. If the Taliban start using children to kill American and UN soldiers, we must react accordingly. If that means accepting the idea that we may suspect certain children of being (child) soldiers, so be it. This just means we aren't giving Afghan children preferred status anymore, not shooting random children in the street (that would be bad).

[xoxoxoBruce]

Originally Posted by DanaC

The children used by the Talibs have become combatants. If non-combatant children are targeted as potential combatants, then we have turned them into combatants. We have made them 'child soldiers'.

That word, targeted, was chosen by the Guardian for an inflammatory headline, I didn't see it coming from a US military source. Being on the lookout for "children with potential hostile intent", is not the same thing.

I've seen literally hundreds of pictures from Iraq and Afghanistan where the kids are begging (and getting) candy from our soldiers. Also pictures of soldiers being vigilant, peeking around corners, while ignoring children near by.

What they are saying now is the taliban is using children and our soldiers should be aware, not ignore them as in the past.

[sexobon]

Well then there's only one thing left to do. We'll have to air drop cartons of hoodies in children's sizes into Taliban camps. It'll meet the requirements of international agreements that combatants be in distinctive uniform. Any more armchair crises of conscience you'd like me to solve?

[Undertoad]

FWIW the day care center at the base of WTC was evacuated before the collapse. The only children killed on 9/11 were on planes. There were 8.

[ZenGum]

at SexoB.

Hoodies are only combat wear if you're black, you know.

Seriously, here's the solution. Don't target people as "potential" combatants. Adults or children. Only "actual" combatants should be targeted.

Of course, the difficulty is how the troops on the ground are to tell the difference, and how long they have to wait for an obvious ambush to be sprung before acting.

[tw]

Originally Posted by ZenGum

Don't target people as "potential" combatants. Adults or children. Only "actual" combatants should be targeted.

An army placed into an unwinnable situation cannot tell the difference between combatants and civilians. And so that Army will burn the village to save it. A situation created because (as in both Vietnam and Mission Accomplished) top management was completely incompetant. Even violated basic military doctrine. And then lied about it. Making the Army's lowest level soldiers into victims who will lash out at anything only vaguely similar to an enemy.

Need we remember the so many previous lessons including My Lai? Even top officers who all but encouraged it, did not try to stop it, and tried to cover it up were somehow exonerated. Forget morality. It is the classic example of where 85% of all problems are created.

Deaths of innocents is often traceable to problems created at the highest levels long before those deaths start becoming frequent.

Need we remember but again large numbers of dead Iraqis found month after month along the 4th Infantry's supply lines from Kuwait to Northern Iraq? Any Iraqi who got close to a convoy had expectations of being sliced into parts by 50 caliber fire. It became too routine. A problem created by the same Gen Odiero who later did so much to learn of and then correct his mistakes.

[xoxoxoBruce]

Mark Twain wrote about a village which was sending their young men off to war. The day before the preacher and citizens gathered to pray for the soldiers. A stranger appeared and spoke to the crowd, telling them he'd just come from heaven.

When you have prayed for victory you have prayed for many unmentioned results which follow victory — must follow it, cannot help but follow it. Upon the listening spirit of God fell also the unspoken part of the prayer. He commandeth me to put it into words. Listen!


“Lord our Father, our young patriots, idols of our hearts, go forth into battle — be Thou near them! With them — in spirit — we also go forth from the sweet peace of our beloved firesides to smite the foe. O Lord our God, help us tear their soldiers to bloody shreds with our shells; help us to cover their smiling fields with the pale forms of their patriot dead; help us to drown the thunder of the guns with the shrieks of their wounded, writhing in pain; help us to lay waste their humble homes with a hurricane of fire; help us to wring the hearts of their unoffending widows with unavailing grief; help us to turn them out roofless with their little children to wander unfriended in the wastes of their desolated land in rags and hunger and thirst, sports of the sun flames in summer and the icy winds of winter, broken in spirit, worn with travail, imploring thee for the refuge of the grave and denied it —

For our sakes who adore Thee, Lord, blast their hopes, blight their lives, protract their bitter pilgrimmage, make heavy their steps, water their way with their tears, stain the white snow with the blood of their wounded feet!

We ask it, in the spirit of love, of Him Who is the Source of Love, and Who is the ever-faithful refuge and friend of all that are sore beset and seek His aid with humble and contrite hearts. Amen.

Twain refused to let it be published while he was alive.