Obama: "I'm ready to negotiate with you, Iran." Iran: "Fuck you."

[TheMercenary]

Originally Posted by ZenGum

And here is where I think a lot of Americans are making a very bad assessment of the relative importance of things.

Assume the goal is to ensure the life, liberty and (opportunity to pursue) happiness of the US people.

Well, it is, but understand that it is only about "the US people". The rest can fend for themselves.

Terrorists have killed ... ten thousand, in total, ever? How many have cigarettes killed? Car crashes?

Less than most all other countries. Ciggarette smoking has significantly been reduced in the US; Our car crash requirements are among the highest in the world. So yea, as long as we are free to manipulate statistics, we are doing quite well compared to other countries.

Meanwhile, multinational corporations have effectively bought control of your government and are manipulating it for their own benefit.

Democracy is a bitch.

They send you to war

Well, no, politicians did that. Not Corporations. I don't know where you got that idea, but our government made all that happen, not some mystery shadow corporation..

pillage your treasury.

The God Damm Government is doing that for us.... not some mystery Corp....

Your government now routinely spies on you and strip-searches you, and are taking more and more steps towards detention without trial, torture and killing.

Horse shit. I travel all the time. None of that has happened to me or anyone I know. You are focusing on 0.00001% of any person who travels.

I don't know about you guys, but I am FAR more scared of the trend toward corruption of the US government than I ever have been of any terrorist organisation.

I am much more fearful of a runaway government, unchecked and un-regulated.

[tw]

Originally Posted by TheMercenary

The God Damm Government is doing that for us.... not some mystery Corp....

Strange how he never said that when wacko extremists - the worst type of conservative - were the government that was massacring American soldiers in Mission Accomplished for political aspirations. When wackos all but surrendered to the Taliban in Afghanistan. When wackos were kidnapping foreigners and justifying it using pretty expressions such as extraordinary rendition. When wackos were enriching the richest at the expense of all other Americans. When wackos refuse to prosecute Enron until all but embarrassed by the state of Oklahoma. When wackos refused to prosecute those who intentionally created a CA energy crisis. When wackos let First Energy operate a nuclear power plant with a potential Three Mile Island problem only because they ran a $400,000 Bush Cheney fund raiser. Same plant that was so mismanaged as to eat through its critically important containment dome. When wackos undermined what makes America great - science and research - by even destroying stem cell, quantum physics, space and advance energy research. Obama finally had to rescue the AMS experiment. And stop having White House lawyers rewriting science papers. These guys so hated American workers as to even stifle hybrid automobile products. Because profits are more important that things that once made America great.

Why did wackos destroy the US Space program by first not making any decisions, and then creating a disaster - Constellation, Orion, and Ares? Why did wackos attack so many space research projects? Why did wackos promote an obvious disaster only for political purposes - Man to Mars. And almost destroy the Hubble until a near revolt among the astronaut corp reversed that decision. Why did wackos says "Reagan proved that deficits don't matter". And therefore create today's economic calamity. Why did wackos all but protect bin Laden? All but protect Madoff. Why did wackos try to create a shooting war with China over a silly spy plane? Why did wackos do exactly what the Norwegian foreign minister predicted - destroy the Oslo Accords? Why did wackos make America's popularity throughout the world the lowest in post WWII history? Even turn a 90% popularity number in one of America's closest allies to less than 10% - and wackos said this was good.

Why does TheMercenary ignore all this to blame those who are not wacko extremists? Because Limbaugh et al tell him how to think. We have met the enemy and he is us. Forty years later, that same problem still exists. Those who most created all these problems are now blaming all others rather than look in a mirror.

Repeatedly ask TheMercenary to explain all these disasters. He will do everything to avoid your questions. So keep asking. Get him to admit to those mistakes. Or let him show all why most of America's problems are directly traceable to wackos who call everyone else a liberal.

Just because Beck, Hannity, et al are proven right by insulting all others does not mean TheMercenary is also right. Why do many disaster traceable to wacko extremists? Because "Reagan proved that deficits don't matter."

We must cut spending by $1 trillion because wackos lied about Mission Accomplished - which then cost $1 trillion. So everyone but wackos (who lied about Saddam's WMDs) created our budget problems. We who are not wacko extremists should feel so guilty.

[classicman]

Originally Posted by tw

most of America's problems are directly traceable to wackos who call everyone else a liberal.

What happened to the 85%?

Just because Beck, Hannity, et al are proven right

wait whaaat?

[Lamplighter]

Shall we start a pool on the date/time Israeli stealth's will leave a package on Iran's doorstep.

You Sir, have been warned.

Voice of America
Nov 19, 2011
US to Slap Isolated Iran With New Sanctions

The United States is getting ready to hit Iran with new, tougher sanctions,
with one top official saying Tehran now faces an "unprecedented" degree of isolation.

U.S. officials, speaking on the condition of anonymity late Friday,
said the sanctions could be unveiled as early as Monday and
would target Iran's petrochemical industry.
They said the new sanctions would seek to stop foreign companies
from investing in ventures like oil refineries.

The officials said foreign companies that violate the ban
would be cut off from access to the U.S. market,
and that European countries could introduce similar sanctions later next week.
<snip>
Iran has dismissed the IAEA report.
The country's IAEA envoy, Ali Ashgar Soltanieh, said the measure will only strengthen
Iran's determination to continue its uranium enrichment activities

[ZenGum]

Well, no, politicians did that. Not Corporations. I don't know where you got that idea, but our government made all that happen, not some mystery shadow corporation..

The God Damm Government is doing that for us.... not some mystery Corp....

Sir, corporations have long since taken more-or-less control of your government. They have nibbled your country out from under you while you (personally) were defending it from terrorists.

Funny how pretty much every thread about Libya, Iran, Iraq, etc ends up arguing US politics. It's a mostly American board here.

[classicman]

The country's IAEA envoy, Ali Ashgar Soltanieh, said the measure will only strengthen Iran's determination to continue its uranium enrichment activities

Woopdie dooo! Like anything has really changed. Turn the place into a parking lot. Some people cannot be negotiated with.

(yes, I realize its an immediate emotional reaction)

[Griff]

Yeah, careful UG. If we pave the place, the more liberal minded die with the theocrats. I'd prefer we wait for the implosion of an untenable society.

[Urbane Guerrilla]

Originally Posted by Griff

Yeah, careful UG. If we pave the place, the more liberal minded die with the theocrats. I'd prefer we wait for the implosion of an untenable society.

Why wait? Why should we not, say, help? Régime change can be successful... that's the lesson of the early twenty-first century.

What is it we can expect from the present Iranian government?
___ More of the same damn crap, plus undermining of democratic republics
___ Radical change and a Good Neighbor Policy

[classicman]

lol

[piercehawkeye45]

That's what I've been hearing as well. It is pretty clear that Obama is against a pre-emptive attack on Iran so if Israel wanted to go through with it, they would have to go alone. That is why they are forced to wait until after the US leaves Iraq if they can't go through SA.

The main reason why I believe Israel would not go through with an attack is that there is very little chance it will make their situation any better. But then again, I am feeling that Israel's pragmatism has been dwindling lately.

[Lamplighter]

It seems as long as Iran can keep the talking (diplomacy) going,
there is not sufficient motivation to react to threats of more UN sanctions.
But when Israel starts scurrying about it does get their attention.

Reuters
By Parisa Hafezi
Tue Nov 22, 2011
Iran misjudged West's resolve in nuclear standoff

It is unclear how Iran's hardline conservative leadership will act,
with hard calculation, national pride and Islamic outlook all part of the equation.
But senior officials have repeatedly hinted that diplomacy would be the first recourse.

"The regime is very worried about a military strike.
They have mishandled the issue and it is now very difficult for them to reach any kind of compromise,"
said a senior European diplomat in Tehran, who asked not to be named.
"Also they are worried about a spread of the Arab Spring (popular protests) into Iran
and cannot risk more economic pressure that can cause street protests."<snip>

However, a lack of stability in the Middle East, combined with Iran's
ability to stir up trouble in Lebanon, Syria, Iraq and Afghanistan,
do weigh on Western policymakers' minds when contemplating
tougher action against Tehran, officials say.

"Their (Americans) hands are sufficiently tied down in the region ...
The American nation cannot tolerate another overseas military flashpoint,"
said an Iranian official, speaking on condition of anonymity.

Iran can also draw comfort from the anti-sanctions posture of veto-wielding
Security Council members Russia and China, but by pursuing its confrontational stance
it may overplay its hand.

[TheMercenary]

Originally Posted by piercehawkeye45

That's what I've been hearing as well. It is pretty clear that Obama is against a pre-emptive attack on Iran so if Israel wanted to go through with it, they would have to go alone. That is why they are forced to wait until after the US leaves Iraq if they can't go through SA.

The problem with that thinking is that a counter attack by Iran would draw the US in by a MOU. Signed in 1968 and re-signed by Clinton and Netanyhau in 1998.

[piercehawkeye45]

Maybe if Iran attacked Israel directly, which I doubt they would do. Their missile capability is extremely weak while Israel's (and the US's) is very strong. Iran would play to their strengths and use Hezbollah, Hamas, and other terrorist/insurgency cells if they decided to respond along with other non-direct methods. The US wouldn't be drawn in with an MOU if that happened.

[TheMercenary]

Israel stirring up trouble? Maybe, maybe not. Turkey certainly is closer than Israel.....

A senior commander of Iran's powerful Revolutionary Guard says the country will target NATO's missile defense shield in Turkey if the U.S.¬ or Israel attacks the Islamic Republic.

Gen. Amir Ali Hajizadeh, the head of the Guards' aerospace division, is quoted by the semiofficial Mehr news agency as saying the warning is part of a new defense strategy to counter what it sees as an increase in threats from the U.S.¬ and Israel.

http://www.haaretz.com/news/diplomac...-says-1.397862

[classicman]

Hmmm The first one I can buy was some sort of mistake or accident. Whatever.
But now another one?

A second Iranian nuclear facility has exploded,
as diplomatic tensions rise between the West and Tehran

AN IRANIAN nuclear facility has been hit by a huge explosion, the second such blast in a month, prompting speculation that Tehran's military and atomic sites are under attack.

Satellite imagery seen by The Times confirmed that a blast that rocked the city of Isfahan on Monday struck the uranium enrichment facility there, despite denials by Tehran.

The images clearly showed billowing smoke and destruction, negating Iranian claims yesterday that no such explosion had taken place. Israeli intelligence officials told The Times that there was "no doubt" that the blast struck the nuclear facilities at Isfahan and that it was "no accident".

The explosion at Iran's third-largest city came as satellite images emerged of the damage caused by one at a military base outside Tehran two weeks ago that killed about 30 members of the Revolutionary Guard, including General Hassan Moghaddam, the head of the Iranian missile defence program.

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