Terror Plot 'One Of The Most Chilling Imaginable'

[TheMercenary]

Originally Posted by xoxoxoBruce

Hardly a threat to western civilization, but it's good that they stopped these asshats from recruiting people that actually could do something.

This really is the bottom line here, I really do not work for NBC and did not write the headline, really I had nothing to do with that bit . It is good to know there are people out there watching these scumbags and doing all they can to find out what they are up to.

[Undertoad]

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.../04/wjfk04.xml

The alleged conspiracy to blow up John F Kennedy airport, in New York, and a recent plot to kill soldiers at a nearby United States Army base represent only the "tip of the iceberg" of terrorist plots against America, according to US officials.

[piercehawkeye45]

Originally Posted by piercehawkeye45

This may be the same guys that were bragging that they were going to execute an attack even worse than 9/11 but I doubt it.

That means these guys are still out there. They said that they attack the US unless it pulls out of all Arab countries, which is not happening.

I am going to call a bluff on the worse than 9/11 (hopefully) part because that would be insanely hard and you would need to be a near genius to get it too work. Saying that you are going to do it beforehand won't help your cause and is most likely a popularity stunt (hopefully).

[xoxoxoBruce]

How would you determine worse than 9-11? More bodies? More infrastructure damaged? More costly in economy disruption? Bet I could top 2 out of 3 with a dirty bomb. Maybe with gas.

[xoxoxoBruce]

Originally Posted by Undertoad

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.../04/wjfk04.xml

It also says

The FBI announced at the weekend that they had foiled a plan to blow up a 40-mile fuel pipeline to JFK airport, which handles a thousand flights a day.

That's not what the American papers said.

[piercehawkeye45]

Originally Posted by xoxoxoBruce

How would you determine worse than 9-11? More bodies? More infrastructure damaged? More costly in economy disruption? Bet I could top 2 out of 3 with a dirty bomb. Maybe with gas.

9/11 was complicated because it was a physical attack along with a symbolic attack.

Not only did it kill people, it installed fear of being able to hijack 4 airplanes, something most people have been on, and being able to crash them into symbolic structures.

A dirty bomb could cause more damage but it would never had the meaning of 9/11 with not only attacking civilians, but attacking and installing fear by using a method that is much deeper than "wrong place at the wrong time". That borders along with economic disruption too.

I can not prove it, but I would think that the reaction against 9/11 would be less if they just bombed the WTC and other buildings.


If they are going to plan something that is worse than 9/11 I am sure they are talking about the first two and not the third and symbolic meaning of it.

[tw]

Originally Posted by piercehawkeye45

9/11 was complicated because it was a physical attack along with a symbolic attack.

Not only did it kill people, it installed fear of being able to hijack 4 airplanes, something most people have been on, and being able to crash them into symbolic structures.

I don't completely agree. I find the logic in the event more compelling. If 11 September was so tragic for reasons provided, then the 1993 WTC attack should have also been just as tragic. After all, had that attack succeeded, then one tower would have toppled upon the other with something like 40,000 people inside. 11 September did not even intend to be so destructive.

Reasons for success are so similar to how destructive a bullet might be. The bullet itself fired into an elephant did almost no damage. But the elephant fell down upon many people. The real damage was not the attack. The damage was its unintended after-effects.

Remember two planes into the WTC were never intended to bring down either building. It was only intended to kill a few hundred. But both planes took out fire protection systems. No water meant carpet, furniture, and paper brought down both towers. The unintended clogging of stairwells with sheet rock meant almost 3000 people who had plenty of time to escape, instead, died.

The attack even closed all NY financial markets and caused every fire department for 100 miles to become involved. None of that was expected. The terrorists just got lucky. It is their luck that causes 11 September to become a 'smoking gun' akin to Pearl Harbor. In Pearl Harbor, good planning made the attack work and bad luck did not make it as successful as anticipated. But the resulting after-effects were same because both events created a 'smoking gun' with about same number of casualties and a sudden appreciation that a danger existed.

Curiously, even Hilter’s generals did not approve of Pearl Harbor. Even nations not so friendly to the US in 2001 suddenly wanted to be helpful. More indications of how significant each event was as a ‘smoking gun’. Yes, both event did also inspire the more emotional to become fearful or angry. But emotions are fleeting. It is the logic in both 'smoking gun' events that make them so significant. The resulting emotion was simply frosting on that cake.

[Urbane Guerrilla]

Oh, Ibbie, Ibbie, Ibbie...

Look, we're just waiting until you're twenty-five. You really need those eight years, and need to be pretty busy during them -- honest.

These years won't be boring.

[tw]

We have TheMercenary to demonstrate how a political extremist automatically knows by ignoring reality or waiting for reality.

Originally Posted by TheMercenary

Think the Patriot Act helped them catch these guys in anyway? I do.

And then facts and reality arrive devoid of a political agenda. From ABC News of 4 Jun 2007:

Surveillance Video of Accused JFK Plotter
Law enforcement officials speaking Sunday added the informant kept them fully informed from virtually the start of the plot. They say the informant, described as a convicted drug dealer, was so deeply involved in the plot he was able to keep the authorities informed of every move Defreitas and his cohorts made.

So what is more important in stopping terrorism? Violating American legal principles (wiretapping, torture, kidnapping) for the greater glory of Fatherland Security? Or having people who don't hate America due to its government? Those two possibilities are mutually exclusive.

We also know why FBI investigations in AZ MN IL and NY into what is now called 11 September were instead quashed. In each case, right wing extremist administration officials stopped those investigations. In the IL case, both FBI agents were yelled at: "You will not open a criminal investigation." Both agents retired before telling their story. When wacko extremist government officials have a reputation of taking revenge for telling the truth (ie Abm Wilson), one can understand why those agents waited.

Meanwhile, TheMercenary automatically knew that a plot on a JFK pipeline was clearly thwarted by a Patriot Act power. His political agenda told him so. He knew and could not bother to first learn facts? That the difference between Americans located high on that political rope verses extremists who reside on that rope's bottom flaying edges.

The Mercenary has become as extremist as to demonstrate routine how George Jr supporters think. Bottom of a political rope is where those who use their feelings and a political agenda also know that torture is also good - in the glory of a right wing extremist god?

Nobody expected the Spanish Inquisition either. So how did we get George Jr and his wacko extremist supporters? There is no way but to be blunt honest when talking about why wacko extremists also created "Mission Accomplished". So how many American soldiers have died today – a number that will only increase do to those who *know* just like TheMercenary.

Is this post based in emotion? Not for one minute. It makes the same hard fact message I have posting here even in 2002. This post is dripping with hard logical contempt for dumb people who always know using their political agenda - "reality be damned". Hard logic contempt for those who have even harmed the American soldier.

TheMercenary is invited to stop posting based in wacko extremist rhetoric. He (et al) is invited to first learn reality before posting.

When do we go after bin Laden? Now that is a simple question that any reformed or recovering right wing wacko extremist should be asking. Notice not one extremist has even dared to touch that question. Why do only American patriots ask that question? Suddenly we know immediately from TheMercenary that the Patriot Act stopped terrorism by some guys who probably couldn’t even give themselves a hot foot.

I do enjoy picking on those with low intelligence only when they deserve it - by supporting George Jr and having so much contempt for America's soldiers. TheMercenary automatically knew the Patriot Act must have stopped JFK terrorism because he has a political agenda - reality be damned.

[tw]

Originally Posted by Aliantha

If there were really anything substantial in it, I think we'd be hearing a lot more about it.

Appreciate for the first 12 hours, all local news was hyping this story as if bin Laden had just been captured. You would be too far to appreciate administration hype of a mythical attack by Florida residents on the Sears Tower in Chicago. How terrorist were planning to blow up the Golden Gate Bridge. How the NY Stock Exchange was to be hit next. But this attack was hyped even more - especially by the local ABC "Action News" station.

Local broadcasting was flooding news snippets with "JFK to be attacked" and "most chilling imaginable". Remember, almost one third of Americans are so extremist as to still support George Jr. and to advocated more "war on terrorism". The rhetoric is still excessively profound via channels such as Rush Limbaugh, Pat Robertson, and TheMercenary. He is far from unusual. So many American still believe we should unilaterally attack Iran and N Korea because they are the axis of evil. They still say so publicly – but only in low tones. They still know that Guantanamo is still full of terrorist who should be tortured.

Ironically, America is little different from what is sometimes called the German mentality. When Zimbarto did his famous experiment where people were ordered to shock a ‘subject’ with hundreds of volts - even with the screaming - they would obey orders and crank up the voltage. Many Americans are no different from those who became Hitler's brown shirts. They know only from their political agenda – be it hate of Muslims or ‘niggers’. Hate by race, nationality, or religion – does not matter if that is the political agenda.

Demonstrated here is TheMercenary who always knows only because his political agenda tells him it is so. He is convinced that the Patriot Act - more power for Pres Cheney - stopped an attack on JFK. So much hype in those first 12 hours as demonstrated by TheMercenary’s first post in this thread. Local gossip was aggressively feeding those who still see Al Qaeda hiding everywhere just waiting to strike.

[Urbane Guerrilla]

Tw, it appears, is in the grip of a belief Cheney is President, not Vice President. He can explain it, but his explanation will expose his error also, as surely as the sun shall rise tomorrow.

The anti-Republican fruitcakes have a persistent, and as persistently disproven, trope that all Republican Presidents must by definition be unintelligent.

Thing is, they do smarter stuff than the Democratic Presidents can gin up. They recover the economy, they win wars. History shows it.

[tw]

Originally Posted by Urbane Guerrilla

Tw, it appears, is in the grip of a belief Cheney is President, not Vice President.

What is technically true is not necessarily reality. George Jr only has the abilities to be a front man. Even Lee Iacocca (once a supporter of George Jr and now one of his strongest critics - I believe Lee used the word incompetent) believes Cheney makes the decisions.

While Cheney was in the Middle East trying to figure out what to do as the surge was not working, where was George Jr? Selectively visiting Latin American nations - to show face in hope to patch up strained relations. One makes decisions. The other is a figure head.

George Jr is not smart enough to make decisions. He did not even know the nations that border Israel. Those who use reality - not a political agenda - could see who really was president.

Brown shirts will believe anything they are told - including that George Jr is smart and makes decisions. Even Colin Powell made it obvious who makes the decisions. Even Sec of Treasury Paul O'Neill demonstrated George Jr's did not even read his memos. Cabinet meeting were really stage shows - decisions had already been made elsewhere.

When General Garner started to tell George Jr how bad things were becoming in Iraq, Garner suddenly realized that George Jr had been told nothing by Rumsfeld and Cheney. So he stopped. No sense telling a figurehead who has no idea what was happening what is happening. With Rumsfeld sitting right there, Garner and Rumsfeld then immediately knew what the other knew. Rumsfeld had been lying to Garner all along. George Jr had no idea what was happening in Iraq. Rumsfeld was working for Pres Cheney.

David Kay left a meeting with George Jr shocked at Bush's lack of inquisitiveness. Cheney and Libby later asked probing and challenging questions when not in the room with George Jr including possible Syrian connections, WMDs in the Bekka Valley, and details of raw NSA intercepts. Which one is the leader and which one is the front man?

Numerous examples – all well published - require Urbane Guerrilla to grasp reality - to ignore his political agenda. Urbane Guerrilla is not capable of grasping realities that contradict a political agenda. So UG actually believes George Jr makes decisions? Brown shirts believe what they are told; will even deny reality. Reality was long ago that Cheney has long been the president.

Cheney’s big complaint? The presidency does not have enough power.

[Urbane Guerrilla]

As I said: your answer will expose your error.

[xoxoxoBruce]

Izat right?

[Urbane Guerrilla]

Hey, tw hewed to type, sticking to the how-many-times-disproven story that Republican + President Is Supposed To Equal 76 IQ.

When will he learn he can't sell that one to me? I don't do anything with fertilizer. I don't live in that kind of house.

The Republican-haters frankly cannot see straight, and don't recognize the success of this Presidency. This is evidence of willful and collossal Stooooooooooooooooooooooooopiiiddddityyyyyyy, to give it the emphasis it should have, capital S and all.

And for the wilful ones, a short and irrefutable list: 13500 Dow Jones, 4.5% unemployment, no successful terr attacks on US soil since 9-11, Ghaddafi gave up WMD quite simply because of the Iraq campaign, Saddam dead, Taliban out.

But noooo... this isn't enough for the Republican-haters, those wannabe paragons of righteousness. So fuck you guys with a splintery shovel handle lubed up with Dave's After Death Sauce (tm). The Republicans work in the Republic's interest. What do you bleaters do?