Sexual misconduct

[DanaC]

We know very little, almost nothing, about how early man interacted and socialised. The idea that we have an unbroken 100,000 years of a particular way of men and women interacting and expressing emotional and sexual needs is one that doesn't really hold up to close scrutiny.

We have recorded history, to give us clues, for the barest fraction of our time as modern humans. The archeaological record is even scanter for periods before cities and settled civilisations.

Even through that small fraction of known human history there have been very different ways of organising societies, very different ways of understanding gender at various times and in various places.

I don't think there are no differences between men and women - I just think that society and culture magnify these beyond what they would naturally be without that cultural influence. There is so much variance between women and between men that it outweighs many of the apparent differences between men and women.

Except that, culturally, men will have a particular set of experiences women generally won't and vice versa.

For instance - we have the notion that men are less in touch with their emotions and women are better at expressing theirs - but I know plenty of women who suck at expressing or understanding their own emotions, and I know plenty of men who have a very nuanced understanding of their own emotions and high levels of empathy.

Things may be weighted one way or another - but often the statistics for tests of emotional maturity, or word usage, or preferences in play for kids, or aptitude for maths and science, caring and languages etc etc show a vast middle ground in which the determining factor is not gender, but much more individual.

In terms of what is or is not acceptable in sexual conduct - well that's a bit of a different thing. Though I don't doubt predatory behaviour can be found in males and females, as can passivity.

Again, though - we can only really judge our time and recent times for any sense of what is, is not, and has been acceptable.

[DanaC]

"Holy shit, I would *destroy* that ass."

Also - that's not really the stuff that needs quashing, so much as the things that hint at (or outright reference) a lack of consent or a sense of predation as ok. That includes catcalling young girls, getting a girl too drunk to object, or joking about rape.

"Holy shit, I would rape that " would be a different matter. Now that's probably not something you'd encounter in your age group - but it's something younger lads have been heard saying.

A few years ago, a group of young men at a party gang raped a young woman who was unconscious. They filmed it on their phones and posted it on Facebook. They didn't think it was rape - she wasn't forced at knifepoint, she wasn't screaming - she didn't say no.

There is a disconnect there where they just didn't see her as a human being. She was a thing to be used. And they didn't see it as an issue - nobody in the party stopped them. They didn't hatch their plan in secret and not speak to anybody not in their circle about it. They did it at a party and posted the video on social media.

I do think things are getting better though. Girls and boys are growing up in a very different culture now and I feel pretty optimistic about the kids coming up now and approaching adulthood. But part of that, I think, is borne of the debate we've been having in our society for the past couple of decades. I also think it's because boys and girls lives and interests don't seem to diverge as sharply as they once did - there are a lot more areas in which they intersect and interact. They have more opportunities to interact with each other in ways that demonstrate the things they share.

[Gravdigr]

"If you so much as look at my woman I will break this cue over your head."

"If you don't want your woman to be looked at, keep her at home in the basement."

And then I got my ass handed to me. I wasn't bleeding alone, though.

True Story™.

[Gravdigr]

Maybe there were a few more sentences involved.

[Gravdigr]

Is it misconduct to stare?

'Cuz if you're a particularly attractive woman, I will stare right at your pretty.

And if you're the prettiest woman I've seen that day, it is not unheard of for me to tell you that.

[DanaC]

Originally Posted by Gravdigr

Is it misconduct to stare?

.

Depends how long you hold the stare and if you drool.

And if you're the prettiest woman I've seen that day, it is not unheard of for me to tell you that.

Depends on the context for that one. If, for example, the prettiest woman you've seen all day is the one bringing you your meal in a restaurant - don't tell her. If the prettiest woman you've seen all day is a total stranger at the train station with whom you've shared not one word - don't tell her.

[sexobon]

Thank you for your candor.

There's plenty of women who engage in sexual misconduct like having sex with a man to get a job, promotion, living beyond their means. Plenty of them brag about it, like how they have that person wrapped around their little finger.

I haven't seen where it's any more likely that "good" women will get involved in deterring bad sexual behavior by other women anymore than "good" men will with other men.

It's all sexual misconduct. It's just more likely to be nonconsensual when men engage in sexual misconduct and consensual when women do it. It seems that when a discussion on sexual misconduct comes up, women mostly think in terms of nonconsensual behavior or harassment. The consensual sexual misconduct, like women leading men on to take advantage of them, seems to fall by the wayside for "good" women; unless, it's the "good" woman's man that's being led on by another woman.

[Undertoad]

#MeToo is now officially over. Sorry ladies.

Aziz Ansari is accused of sexual assault by a woman. A woman who got naked with him, gave him oral twice and allowed him to give her oral once, decided she didn't want to have actual sex and so it became awkward and she left.

https://babe.net/2018/01/13/aziz-ansari-28355

It was a bad, aggressive date with a woman who at first appeared to be into things and then had second thoughts. Now Ansari's career will be affected if not ruined -- or the entire movement will experience its backlash. Which one?

This is exactly what should not happen - awkward advances and misreading of "non-verbal cues" must not turn into assault after the fact when you decide it was a bad time when the guy couldn't read your goddamn mind.

(Also, sucking a guy's dick is a huge "non-verbal cue". If you say no, no, no, ok I'll suck your dick, you should assume that the previous no's are wiped out by proxy.)

This story discredits the entire movement. The ending should have been, sorry you had a bad time. Sex is like that. Human relationships are like that. It's awkward and there are weird pressures and feelings around it. But if no stayed no, you weren't assaulted and you really must STFU for the sake of all the women who actually were.

[BigV]

Originally Posted by Undertoad

#MeToo is now officially over. Sorry ladies.


This story discredits the entire movement.

--edited for clarity

This is 100 percent bullshit.


UT, you're capable of much better thinking and argumentation. This reads like it was scraped from woman-hating comment thread. I am shocked you put your name to it.

[xoxoxoBruce]

Originally Posted by BigV

This is 100 percent bullshit.


UT, you're capable of much better thinking and argumentation. This reads like it was scraped from woman-hating comment thread. I am shocked you put your name to it.

“I was debating if this was an awkward sexual experience or sexual assault. And that’s why I confronted so many of my friends and listened to what they had to say, because I wanted validation that it was actually bad.”

It didn't go the way it had played out in her head ahead of time, but needed her friends to validate it's was his fault and she'd been assaulted. She's hardly the first to cry rape after making bad decisions and regretting it.

[Undertoad]

I concede overreaction/overstatement. If the story gets more play it will start discrediting it going forward.

If people just say meh this happens, fine. If Ansari has no more career, serious implications.

[Gravdigr]

Aziz Ansari's career swirling the bowl would not impact--well, anybody but him. Dude's not all that humorous.

[Gravdigr]

I tried, and cannot imagine the woman that would suck his dick.

She was prolly sucking his wallet, and found out it didn't go all way down to the turtles.

[sexobon]

I wonder when the movement will try to take down God for abuse of power after what he did to that poor virgin, Mary. We'll have to wait and see how many other women come forward to say that God did something similar to them. Maybe we'll find that theists have been paying out hush money. It'll be interesting to see if any Churches fire God.

[BigV]

Cite.

Show me where the woman say she was assaulted.