Let's talk about Israel and Palestine...

[Cyclefrance]

Just back after a long day. I haven't even begun to digest the various replies to my post, and with an early start tmrw, I will have to leave doing so until tmrw afternoon, when I will have free time again, so will respond then.

[Undertoad]

The more I think about it, the more I think it's just a cultural thing. The US has decided to view it this way, Europe has decided to view it this other way. Kinda sorta. And I know I have been borderline shocked before, by certain cultural differences in political philosophy between the continents. It's just a "we grew up like that" kind of thing.

[henry quirk]

At this point: All I'm seein' are folks interested in profiting from their 'oppressed' status goin' at it with folks interested in foistin' up their demented religion on the world.

To hell with both sides...to hell with those who advocate for either side.

[Cyclefrance]

I'm finding it hard to keep up with this thread. Maybe that's a reflection of how convoluted the problem is, or, perhaps more likely, how old I am getting! Trying to disentangle who is right and who is wrong based on what has happened in the past seems pointless to me. If we go back far enough you can blame us Brits. We're pretty good at carving up other people's land - look what we did in Ireland and we've only relatively recently extricated ourselves from the mess that caused. Still we did resolve it to a degree that has held firm for a good few years now, so there should always be hope. To move forward in such situations, though, you have to draw a line on what has gone before, however unpalatable that may seem.

I was essentially trying to get across some simplified messages or observations if you like. For me, human life is too precious to permit to be wasted. I know that's a rather naive sounding thing to say given the atrocities that are created throughout the world, but where we, Western governments that is, have the ability to influence a situation then I believe we should do so. And it seems that maybe we do have the ability in terms of what is happening in Gaza, as we control the purse strings at least on one side. The statement I made that 'no innocent person deserves to die' is my view of what the West should have as its overriding objective, such that any strategy it devises or action it takes to try to resolve the situation should only proceed provided that it upholds this objective.

I think it's the right one, if you don't I'm happy to be convinced otherwise, but I'm looking for arguments as to how to stop what is happening continuing - and so views that there is a nuclear solution or that 'if you still live in Gaza, you're an idiot who deserves to die' aren't satisfactory solutions because, whether they were seriously meant or just expressions of frustration with the situation, they don't uphold the overriding objective that 'no innocent person deserves to die'.

Can the ordinary people influence their governments? Well, maybe they can. There's evidence that we are having some success at doing this over here, certainly on a domestic level, and this is mainly down to a small number of organisations that use the scope that current technology permits to provide a platform for people to join together to voice their disapproval. When the voice of disapproval grows big enough, loud enough then, perhaps surprisingly (perhaps not given it doesn't want to alienate its electorate) our government has been seen to act in ways that show that it does apparently listen.

I know I haven't addressed individual criticisms of my earlier post. I certainly don't think people here are ignorant so I will certainly apologise for creating that impression. I'm not sure what would be achieved by countering every point really, but I will be back on some, just not tonight. Who exactly was it who said that you will have more time on your hands once you reach retirement age? Certainly hasn't headed in this direction yet!

[Undertoad]

Thank you Cyc, if nothing else we will get further if we are adult about it and all have respect for each other. Maybe we can find a better way to talk about it.

For me, human life is too precious to permit to be wasted.

That is absolutely the primary goal. Minimization of death.

Coming close behind is maintaining and promoting the idea that human life is too precious to permit to be wasted. It'll be simple to do when everyone believes it.

~

I thought about your earlier post and there is one more item I must take issue with. You believe that Israel would strategically bomb crop fields. This idea is ridiculous on its face for no other reason than no army in the world would waste expensive munitions bombing dirt. But what you should also know is that Israel provides almost all the fresh water for Gaza, and if it doesn't want Gaza growing crops, or if it wants to maximize suffering, it can merely shut the water off for a while.

If you saw images or video of dirt being bombed I will guarantee you that the rockets that rained down on the crops were fired by Hamas. Like all modern militaries, Israel actually tries to aim their bombs. Hamas points in the general direction and lets Allah do the aiming part. Their bombs often hit their own territory and/or citizens.

[xoxoxoBruce]

Originally Posted by Cyclefrance

If we go back far enough you can blame us Brits.

Long before Brits, or Britain for that matter.

We're pretty good at carving up other people's land...

The main two reasons for the carving was to reward important people, and separate enemies from each other. Now people are mobile, the enemies can't be separated that easily.

For me, human life is too precious to permit to be wasted.

I certainly approve of that sentiment, but as I sit here reading about/pondering, the fucked up state of the middle east, nobody is kicking in my door. I'm reasonably certain there won't be anything coming through the roof, and I'm brazenly sitting right next to a window.

...but where we, Western governments that is, have the ability to influence a situation then I believe we should do so.

Those days are gone, especially with the cold war heating up. No unified Mom & Dad against petulant terrorist, they're playing off divorced Mom against Dad.

And it seems that maybe we do have the ability in terms of what is happening in Gaza, as we control the purse strings at least on one side.

The somewhere between $3 and $8 Billion the US gives Israel every year? In reality it's like the birthday card from grandma with $10 tucked in it. That money is appreciated, and will be used, but doesn't mean a tinkers damn to my lifestyle. It's more important as a reassurance that despite how I've fucked up, grandma still loves me.

The statement I made that 'no innocent person deserves to die' is my view of what the West should have as its overriding objective, such that any strategy it devises or action it takes to try to resolve the situation should only proceed provided that it upholds this objective.

That's a tough one for leaders that routinely write off millions of people as simply collateral damage in the control the empire game.

I think it's the right one, if you don't I'm happy to be convinced otherwise, but I'm looking for arguments as to how to stop what is happening continuing - and so views that there is a nuclear solution or that 'if you still live in Gaza, you're an idiot who deserves to die' aren't satisfactory solutions because, whether they were seriously meant or just expressions of frustration with the situation, they don't uphold the overriding objective that 'no innocent person deserves to die'.

I agree it's the right goal, and I hope those statements are from frustration over this never ending story, but then reality pops up and says, how? That's when people revert to the nuke and move quips as an escape from the migraine inducing puzzle.

Can the ordinary people influence their governments? Well, maybe they can. There's evidence that we are having some success at doing this over here,..

I look at what it took to get us out of Vietnam, at a time when the "people" still had some clout, the politicians still had to placate the masses to get reelected, and there weren't eleventy factions to align.
We've had relatively small groups (Sierra Club, Green Peace, Republicans) in which the supporters aren't offending their neighbors with picket signs, but using lobbyists and the courts to force big changes.

I know I haven't addressed individual criticisms of my earlier post.

Disagreement is not criticism.

I certainly don't think people here are ignorant...

Are to.

...so I will certainly apologise for creating that impression.

Never apologize.

I'm not sure what would be achieved by countering every point really,...

Don't you hate when people do that?

...but I will be back on some, just not tonight.

Sounds like a threat.

Who exactly was it who said that you will have more time on your hands once you reach retirement age? Certainly hasn't headed in this direction yet!

Some sadistic lying bastard. After you retire, you slow down and the world speeds up, until you've fallen and you can't get up.

Originally Posted by Undertoad

That is absolutely the primary goal. Minimization of death.
Coming close behind is maintaining and promoting the idea that human life is too precious to permit to be wasted. It'll be simple to do when everyone believes it.

That's more difficult than it sounds. At first it's like, well of course, who would not agree with that. Then it's, well, those crazy ______ terrorists. And those stupid _______ worshipers. Oh, the filthy ________ bastards. Etc, etc, ad infinitum.

Hey, maybe if we could get at least the major religions to condemn killing, we could... um.. nevermind.

[Cyclefrance]

Originally Posted by xoxoxoBruce

Don't you hate when people do that?

Hard to imagine that someone really would

[xoxoxoBruce]

Originally Posted by Cyclefrance

Hard to imagine that someone really would

Heh heh heh, When I read, " I'm not sure what would be achieved by countering every point really...", I couldn't resist.

Jimmy Carter and the Camp David Accords, told us peace is here. After 13 years of post 9-11 carrying the load, (we carried the tent, allies carried the stakes), and hearing regular declarations of victory & peace being just around the corner, we're jaded. Many of us don't believe peace in the middle east is possible. At any cost. By anyone's intervention.

In the past, threads of this nature sparked a flurry of activity. But now I, for one, am sick of hearing solutions that evaporate faster than alcohol. Sick of hearing just a few billion dollars more. Sick of endless lies on all sides.

If I was diligently sifting through the monsoon of information/opinion available, I could probably figure out the truth. Then what? What do I do with it? Can't give it away because nobody has room for it without throwing away their own truth.

[Cyclefrance]

Originally Posted by Undertoad

I thought about your earlier post and there is one more item I must take issue with. You believe that Israel would strategically bomb crop fields. This idea is ridiculous on its face for no other reason than no army in the world would waste expensive munitions bombing dirt. But what you should also know is that Israel provides almost all the fresh water for Gaza, and if it doesn't want Gaza growing crops, or if it wants to maximize suffering, it can merely shut the water off for a while.

If you saw images or video of dirt being bombed I will guarantee you that the rockets that rained down on the crops were fired by Hamas. Like all modern militaries, Israel actually tries to aim their bombs. Hamas points in the general direction and lets Allah do the aiming part. Their bombs often hit their own territory and/or citizens.

It does seem ridiculous but maybe that's a reason that no one will beleve it happened when it did. It looks like I got it wrong that tunnels could be under farmland. I read today that the tunnel network is far more extensive than first believed, and this article, albeit from Palestinian sources seems to bear that out. So there would be justification in Israel's eyes to destroy the land under which the tunnels ran. The first article in which I found this information about farms and orchards being decimated was quite long and on a Palestinian news site, so there's always the possibility it was embellished. I've extracted the relevant text:

Qte
I’m writing now from my home, but I still feel dizzy from shock and nauseated by the sights and smells on my visit to Khan Younis and Khuza’a.
Yesterday I decided to use the opportunity of the ceasefire to visit my family in Khan Younis. I especially wanted to see my sister who had open heart surgery before Israel’s assault. I hadn’t seen her for 36 days. I’m lucky that I have enough fuel in my car to drive 24 kilometers (15 miles) so I struck out towards the south.
I drove down Salaheddin Road and passed rubble from mosques, houses, and factories. Some buildings were destroyed completely and some partially. Later on in my drive, I saw dozens of big trees uprooted and smashed, fruit trees destroyed and farms and gardens decimated and ruined. The Israeli bombs were aimed to destroy the infrastructure, to destroy Gaza’s economy. Even the main cookie factory was targeted and destroyed.
I passed UN trucks distributing food to people in long lines. This siege and assault by the Israelis has made everyone in the Gaza Strip live as a refugee, missing basic needs and struggling to survive.
As we set out to the east, my niece pointed out the devastation, “You can see where the Israeli tanks were—here and here.” We continued toward Khuza’a. It was a model Palestinian agricultural village with open fields and green everywhere. They had fruit trees and vegetable fields. But there was nothing left of the village I remembered.
The smell and the sights we saw were shocking. The moment we parked and I got out, a very strange smell hit us—the smell of dead bodies. That smell will never leave me; it is still stuck in my nose. We saw totally flattened houses and other houses partially destroyed. It reminded me of pictures from war-torn areas where years of fighting erased a village. This Israeli assault has hit the Palestinian people more deeply than the last two military attacks. This one is even more deadly and destructive. Whole neighborhoods and villages have been wiped off the map.
I ask myself now how can we start again?

By Dr. Mona El-Farra, Director of Gaza Projects, who is a physician by training and a human rights and women’s rights activist by practice in the occupied Gaza Strip.


Unqte

I looked for other reports of farmland destruction resulting from the current conflict and found a quite a few - some from Palestinian sources and others with UN tags being more factual with rather short references.

[Undertoad]

The Israeli bombs were aimed to destroy the infrastructure, to destroy Gaza’s economy.

If you want to destroy the infrastructure, destroy an economy, bomb bridges, roads, oil/gas terminals, power plants and loading docks.

The one thing you don't bomb, if you want to destroy infrastructure and an economy, is farms. You can't destroy dirt by bombing it. The next day it's still dirt. (And now, it's pre-tilled!) (that is a joke)

If you want to destroy farms, why not use salt? It's very available in the area (the Dead Sea is right there) and utterly cheap. I wager $1,000 of salt would ruin more farmland, for far longer, than $1 million in modern bombs.

[Big Sarge]

Originally Posted by Undertoad

If you want to destroy the infrastructure, destroy an economy, bomb bridges, roads, oil/gas terminals, power plants and loading docks.

The one thing you don't bomb, if you want to destroy infrastructure and an economy, is farms. You can't destroy dirt by bombing it. The next day it's still dirt. (And now, it's pre-tilled!) (that is a joke)

If you want to destroy farms, why not use salt? It's very available in the area (the Dead Sea is right there) and utterly cheap. I wager $1,000 of salt would ruin more farmland, for far longer, than $1 million in modern bombs.

The Jews already did that at Shechem. Doesn't work well unless you kill everyone first.

[Undertoad]

I haven't posted any of the many, many stories about "collaborators" being executed by Hamas because they have all been in Israeli newspapers. Finally it is hitting the Times. This story is the tip of the iceberg. It says 18 is the largest number. Israeli newspapers are reporting hundreds, including many who worked on digging tunnels, since once they worked on tunnels they knew where the tunnels were, can't have that.

http://www.nytimes.com/2014/08/23/wo...rael-gaza.html

Palestinians Suspected of Collaborating With Israel Are Executed in Gaza Strip

As many as 18 Palestinians suspected of collaborating with Israel were fatally shot in public on Friday, according to local news agencies and two witnesses, the largest number of such executions reported since the onset of this summer’s battle between Israel and militants in the Gaza Strip.

Journalists, human-rights workers and a witness said that either 9 or 11 people, including two women, were killed Friday morning in a public park and a bus stop near Al Azhar University in Gaza City, not far from the central prison where they were believed to have been held. Seven others, their hands tied behind their backs, were killed outside Al Omri mosque downtown after noon prayer, another witness said, leaving bloodstains on the ground that bystanders photographed with their mobile phones.

[DanaC]

Originally Posted by Undertoad

I haven't posted any of the many, many stories about "collaborators" being executed by Hamas because they have all been in Israeli newspapers. Finally it is hitting the Times. This story is the tip of the iceberg. It says 18 is the largest number. Israeli newspapers are reporting hundreds, including many who worked on digging tunnels, since once they worked on tunnels they knew where the tunnels were, can't have that.

Yep. Hamas are not the most pleasant people in the world. Killing the poor sods who dug the tunnels is ridiculous. And, one wuold think entirely counter productive? Wtf is going to be willing to do that work in the future?

Killing actual collaborators: wrong, definitely wrong. But also something that has been done by occupied peoples the world over, pretty much throughout the whole of human history. Plenty of French collaborators lost their lives to the resistance. The IRA killed and maimed a fair few people they considered 'collaborators'. Still wrong - but not at all unusual. I'd honestly be more surprised to find that Hamas hadn't killed people suspected of being collaborators.

[DanaC]

Were you aware of this? The dying Gazans, they're almost all young males. Which can't possibly be true if you believe Israel is targeting, like, everyone:

Justbeen listening to a piece on the radio about this. Turns out it is very common in wars for civilian deaths to be predominantly male - for a variety of reasons. For instance - it tends to be the men who venture out to look for food/survivors, to risk going back home to get things etc. Within safe areas, women and children tend to be further in and men are often at the outskirts, in the corridors and so on - so a hit on a refugee safe area, like a hospital is likely to kill far more men than women. Men are much easier to mistake for fighters when they not. Women are generally assumed not to be fighters. A rocket hitting a cafe or bar is more likely to kill men that women, particularly in a muslim country - where men tend to be out more than women. The emergency services in a muslim country in particular are more likely to be male than female.

No doubt some of those young men weren't civilians. But - many of them wil have been and this is to be expected in any large number of civilian casualities.

[DanaC]

Worth mentioning btw that israel's practice of paying (and pressuring) Palestinian civilians to act as informants might have something to with increased tension around collaborators. Particularly in the wake of several high impact killings of Hamas leaders.