Which is more evil? - Page 6

06-22-2006, 12:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by xoxoxoBruce

That's because, in our youth, we could read the paper or just look around and see the bad, but the flag always represented the good things about the country.

Intentional desecration is annoying but it's someone making a statement, what bothers me more is the unintentional (careless) desecration I see countless examples of every day. You know, fashions, decals, Kit's paper plates, advertising and
flags with "Made in xxxxx" tags.

btw, I said it was a stupid amendment a year ago and still think so.

Those things don't bother me, I have a flag bandanna... they are not flags.

xoxoxoBruce · 06-23-2006, 09:59 AM

UG, I've seen it.

rkzenrage, depends on whether it's a flag replica or bunting (red/white/blue/stars but not the pattern?) material.
I suppose it depends on what the flag represent to the individual. I'm well aware of our (USA) place in the current scheme of things, but my view of the flag is solid 1950. I know that's not hip or even rational but it's a piece of who I am.

06-15-2006, 05:21 PM

Anyone who thinks limiting freedome of speech is a good idea should think about what gives them the right to say such a thing... then shut-up.

To disarm the people is the most effectual way to enslave them." ~George Mason~

"To ban guns because criminals use them is to tell the innocent and law-abiding that their rights and liberties depend not on their own conduct, but on the conduct of the guilty and the lawless, and that the law will permit them to have only such rights and liberties as the lawless will allow... For society does not control crime, ever, by forcing the law-abiding to accommodate themselves to the expected behavior of criminals. Society controls crime by forcing the criminals to accommodate themselves to the expected behavior of the law-abiding." —Jeff Snyder

TJ on Disarming Public
"Laws that forbid the carrying of arms...disarm only those who are neither
inclined nor determined to commit crimes...Such laws make things worse for
the assaulted and better for the assailants; they serve rather to encourage
than to prevent homicides, for an unarmed man may be attacked with greater
confidence than an armed man."
-Thomas Jefferson, quoting Cesare Beccaria

“Guard with jealous attention the public liberty. Suspect every one who approaches that jewel. Unfortunately, nothing will preserve it but downright force. Whenever you give up that force, you are ruined.”
-- Patrick Henry, 3 Elliot, Debates at 45 (Virginia Convention, June 5, 1788).

“God forbid we should ever be 20 years without such a rebellion. The people cannot be all, & always, well informed... what country can preserve it's liberties if their rulers are not warned from time to time that their people preserve the spirit of resistance? Let them take arms... The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots & tyrants. It is it's natural manure.”
-- Thomas Jefferson to William S. Smith on Nov. 13, 1787. The Papers of Thomas Jefferson, ed. Julian P. Boyd, vol. 12, p. 356 (1955).

“I ask, Who are the militia? They consist now of the whole people, except a few public officers.”
-- George Mason, 3 Elliot, Debates at 425-426, June 16, 1788

“And that the said Constitution be never construed to authorize Congress to infringe the just liberty of the Press, or the rights of Conscience; or to prevent the people of the United States, who are peaceable citizens, from keeping their own arms.”
-- Samuel Adams, Debates & Proceedings in the Convention of the Commonwealth of Massachusetts, 86-87 (February 6, 1788).

“Men feared witches and burnt women. It is the function of speech to free men from the bondage of irrational fears.” - U.S. Supreme Court Justice Louis D. Brandeis (1856-1941), Whitney v. California, 274 U. S. 357 (1927)

“If all mankind minus one were of one opinion, and only one person
were of the contrary opinion, mankind would be no more justified
in silencing that one person, than he, if he had the power, would
be justified in silencing mankind.”- John Stuart Mill, On Liberty

“He that would make his own liberty secure, must guard
even his enemy from opposition: for if he violates this duty he
establishes a precedent that will reach to himself. ”- Thomas Paine,
Dissertation On First Principles Of Government

The Bill of Rights to the U.S. Constitution was ratified on December 15, 1791
“Censorship reflects a society’s lack of confidence in itself. It is a hallmark of an authoritarian regime . . . .” - Supreme Court Justice Potter Stewart, dissenting Ginzberg v. United States, 383 U.S. 463 (1966)

“The very purpose of a Bill of Rights was to withdraw certain subjects from the vicissitudes of political controversy, to place them beyond the reach of majorities and officials and to establish them as legal principles to be applied by the courts. One’s right to life, liberty, and property, to free speech, a free press, freedom of worship and assembly, and other fundamental rights may not be submitted to vote; they depend on the outcome of no elections.” - Supreme Court Justice Robert Jackson, West Virginia State Board of Education v. Barnette, 319 U.S. 624 (1943)

BigV · 06-16-2006, 02:07 PM

He took the *crutch* of some crippled vet to poke fire on the flag?!

Kitsune · 06-21-2006, 08:09 AM

The flag does not make the country. It doesn't determine laws, rights, or freedoms, it simply represents whatever we want it to, good or bad. And yes, we're really good at both. It's just a symbol, open to just as much praise and abuse as any other.

If they do manage to pass an amendment against descration of the flag, can I still eat my hotdog on one of these paper plates on the 4th of July, drip ketchup all over the graphic, and then toss it into the grill to burn when I'm done as I wipe my mouth on a napkin of the same appearance?

glatt · 06-21-2006, 09:04 AM

This is why any flag burning amendment won't work. Burning a paper plate is not the same as burning a flag. A flag is a symbol, and if you burn a symbol of that symbol, you can get virtually the same effect, without breaking the letter of the law. And there are much better symbols of the flag than paper plates. See the link for examples that would be legal to burn, but are virtually identical to flags.

Any amendment would be a waste of ink. But at least it keeps the Republicans busy with something that doesn't matter.

Kitsune · 06-21-2006, 09:26 AM

Nice find, Glatt. I love this:

Quote:

Real Americans don't take away the freedoms of other Americans.

And yes, per the comment on it in the blog, it does need to be made into a bumper sticker.

06-21-2006, 04:34 PM

I don't like to see a flag desecrated, and when I see something that bothers me it makes me more happy than sad... means that the 1st is still alive.
Just like TJ said, freedom of speech is the freedom to hear shit you don't want to hear & unpopular speech (loosely quoted). Every time I hear Rummy or Dubya open their mouths I can't believe that every flag in the nation does not flip upside-down then burst into flames spontaneously.

As for the first thing we do during the revolution, those of us raised ready, we don't raid stockpiles... we have them. We teach our neighbors to make and care-for C4 in their kitchen after arming them and teach them tactics.

06-23-2006, 01:06 PM

I have a very solid view of what this nation and the flag means to me.
However, what a flag is and what a Flag is are two very different things, being a Scout and volunteering for every burning ceremony I could so I could honor those old soldiers meant something to me... something that just looks like a flag does not.
Not arguing with you, I see your point of view, I just don't share it.

06-23-2006, 04:16 PM

Talk about limiting freedom of speech and over reacting!

Ibby · 06-23-2006, 04:29 PM

My favorite overreaction-to-free-speech is the dude who got taken by airport security and missed his flight cause he was listening to the Clash in the taxi on the way there. I'll try to find the story...

capnhowdy · 06-23-2006, 10:18 PM

..war toys...

I painfully refrain from comment.
Just me talkin: I won't wear the colors I risked my life to protect. Until they cover me completely and I can no longer be of service to my country. Pardon me while I shut the fuck up.

06-28-2006, 11:31 AM

Flag Amendment Narrowly Fails in Senate Vote

capnhowdy · 06-28-2006, 06:05 PM

Had it passed, it wouldn't have changed things a lot. There will always be disrepectful commies lurking in the shadows of the free world.
I do wish it had passed, tho....

Happy Monkey · 06-28-2006, 06:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by capnhowdy

I do wish it had passed, tho....

Why?

06-23-2006, 09:59 AM	#2
xoxoxoBruce The future is unwritten Join Date: Oct 2002 Posts: 71,105	UG, I've seen it. rkzenrage, depends on whether it's a flag replica or bunting (red/white/blue/stars but not the pattern?) material. I suppose it depends on what the flag represent to the individual. I'm well aware of our (USA) place in the current scheme of things, but my view of the flag is solid 1950. I know that's not hip or even rational but it's a piece of who I am. __________________ The descent of man ~ Nixon, Friedman, Reagan, Trump.

06-15-2006, 05:21 PM	#3
rkzenrage Guest Posts: n/a	Anyone who thinks limiting freedome of speech is a good idea should think about what gives them the right to say such a thing... then shut-up. To disarm the people is the most effectual way to enslave them." ~George Mason~ "To ban guns because criminals use them is to tell the innocent and law-abiding that their rights and liberties depend not on their own conduct, but on the conduct of the guilty and the lawless, and that the law will permit them to have only such rights and liberties as the lawless will allow... For society does not control crime, ever, by forcing the law-abiding to accommodate themselves to the expected behavior of criminals. Society controls crime by forcing the criminals to accommodate themselves to the expected behavior of the law-abiding." —Jeff Snyder TJ on Disarming Public "Laws that forbid the carrying of arms...disarm only those who are neither inclined nor determined to commit crimes...Such laws make things worse for the assaulted and better for the assailants; they serve rather to encourage than to prevent homicides, for an unarmed man may be attacked with greater confidence than an armed man." -Thomas Jefferson, quoting Cesare Beccaria “Guard with jealous attention the public liberty. Suspect every one who approaches that jewel. Unfortunately, nothing will preserve it but downright force. Whenever you give up that force, you are ruined.” -- Patrick Henry, 3 Elliot, Debates at 45 (Virginia Convention, June 5, 1788). “God forbid we should ever be 20 years without such a rebellion. The people cannot be all, & always, well informed... what country can preserve it's liberties if their rulers are not warned from time to time that their people preserve the spirit of resistance? Let them take arms... The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots & tyrants. It is it's natural manure.” -- Thomas Jefferson to William S. Smith on Nov. 13, 1787. The Papers of Thomas Jefferson, ed. Julian P. Boyd, vol. 12, p. 356 (1955). “I ask, Who are the militia? They consist now of the whole people, except a few public officers.” -- George Mason, 3 Elliot, Debates at 425-426, June 16, 1788 “And that the said Constitution be never construed to authorize Congress to infringe the just liberty of the Press, or the rights of Conscience; or to prevent the people of the United States, who are peaceable citizens, from keeping their own arms.” -- Samuel Adams, Debates & Proceedings in the Convention of the Commonwealth of Massachusetts, 86-87 (February 6, 1788). “Men feared witches and burnt women. It is the function of speech to free men from the bondage of irrational fears.” - U.S. Supreme Court Justice Louis D. Brandeis (1856-1941), Whitney v. California, 274 U. S. 357 (1927) “If all mankind minus one were of one opinion, and only one person were of the contrary opinion, mankind would be no more justified in silencing that one person, than he, if he had the power, would be justified in silencing mankind.”- John Stuart Mill, On Liberty “He that would make his own liberty secure, must guard even his enemy from opposition: for if he violates this duty he establishes a precedent that will reach to himself. ”- Thomas Paine, Dissertation On First Principles Of Government The Bill of Rights to the U.S. Constitution was ratified on December 15, 1791 “Censorship reflects a society’s lack of confidence in itself. It is a hallmark of an authoritarian regime . . . .” - Supreme Court Justice Potter Stewart, dissenting Ginzberg v. United States, 383 U.S. 463 (1966) “The very purpose of a Bill of Rights was to withdraw certain subjects from the vicissitudes of political controversy, to place them beyond the reach of majorities and officials and to establish them as legal principles to be applied by the courts. One’s right to life, liberty, and property, to free speech, a free press, freedom of worship and assembly, and other fundamental rights may not be submitted to vote; they depend on the outcome of no elections.” - Supreme Court Justice Robert Jackson, West Virginia State Board of Education v. Barnette, 319 U.S. 624 (1943) Last edited by rkzenrage; 06-15-2006 at 05:26 PM.

06-16-2006, 02:07 PM	#4
BigV Goon Squad Leader Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: Seattle Posts: 27,063	He took the crutch of some crippled vet to poke fire on the flag?! __________________ Be Just and Fear Not.

06-23-2006, 04:29 PM	#11
Ibby erika Join Date: Apr 2006 Location: "the high up north" Posts: 6,127	My favorite overreaction-to-free-speech is the dude who got taken by airport security and missed his flight cause he was listening to the Clash in the taxi on the way there. I'll try to find the story... __________________ not really back, you didn't see me, i was never here shhhhhh

06-23-2006, 10:18 PM	#12
capnhowdy Blatantly Homosapien Join Date: Mar 2004 Posts: 6,200	..war toys... I painfully refrain from comment. Just me talkin: I won't wear the colors I risked my life to protect. Until they cover me completely and I can no longer be of service to my country. Pardon me while I shut the fuck up. __________________ Please type slowly. I can't read very fast............... and no holy water, please.

06-21-2006, 08:09 AM	#5
Kitsune still eats dirt Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: Tampa, FL Posts: 3,031	The flag does not make the country. It doesn't determine laws, rights, or freedoms, it simply represents whatever we want it to, good or bad. And yes, we're really good at both. It's just a symbol, open to just as much praise and abuse as any other. If they do manage to pass an amendment against descration of the flag, can I still eat my hotdog on one of these paper plates on the 4th of July, drip ketchup all over the graphic, and then toss it into the grill to burn when I'm done as I wipe my mouth on a napkin of the same appearance?

06-21-2006, 09:04 AM	#6
glatt ™ Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: Arlington, VA Posts: 27,717	This is why any flag burning amendment won't work. Burning a paper plate is not the same as burning a flag. A flag is a symbol, and if you burn a symbol of that symbol, you can get virtually the same effect, without breaking the letter of the law. And there are much better symbols of the flag than paper plates. See the link for examples that would be legal to burn, but are virtually identical to flags. Any amendment would be a waste of ink. But at least it keeps the Republicans busy with something that doesn't matter.

06-21-2006, 04:34 PM	#8
rkzenrage Guest Posts: n/a	I don't like to see a flag desecrated, and when I see something that bothers me it makes me more happy than sad... means that the 1st is still alive. Just like TJ said, freedom of speech is the freedom to hear shit you don't want to hear & unpopular speech (loosely quoted). Every time I hear Rummy or Dubya open their mouths I can't believe that every flag in the nation does not flip upside-down then burst into flames spontaneously. As for the first thing we do during the revolution, those of us raised ready, we don't raid stockpiles... we have them. We teach our neighbors to make and care-for C4 in their kitchen after arming them and teach them tactics.

06-23-2006, 01:06 PM	#9
rkzenrage Guest Posts: n/a	I have a very solid view of what this nation and the flag means to me. However, what a flag is and what a Flag is are two very different things, being a Scout and volunteering for every burning ceremony I could so I could honor those old soldiers meant something to me... something that just looks like a flag does not. Not arguing with you, I see your point of view, I just don't share it.

06-23-2006, 04:16 PM	#10
rkzenrage Guest Posts: n/a	Talk about limiting freedom of speech and over reacting!

06-28-2006, 11:31 AM	#13
rkzenrage Guest Posts: n/a	Flag Amendment Narrowly Fails in Senate Vote

06-28-2006, 06:05 PM	#14
capnhowdy Blatantly Homosapien Join Date: Mar 2004 Posts: 6,200	Had it passed, it wouldn't have changed things a lot. There will always be disrepectful commies lurking in the shadows of the free world. I do wish it had passed, tho.... __________________ Please type slowly. I can't read very fast............... and no holy water, please.

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