Perspective without Pictures - Page 2

Griff · 09-13-2001, 06:50 AM

"1) all airplanes were grounded, 2) any airplane left in the air would be immediately challenged by fighters or Navy Aegis ships, 3) AF1 flew at altitudes above any commercial flight (actual altitude still remains classified), and 4) any approaching aircraft would first be confronted by
F-16s probably with missiles hot at pilot's discression. Long before George Jr arrived at a SAC base, any threat was long gone." All of which ignores the possibility of a shoulder fired surface to air missle which the CIA in its infinite wisdom supplied to the Afghan rebels during the Reagan administration. AF1 is a big slow target during takeoff and landing.

There is also the question of who these so-called moderates are we are supposed to support. In the Balkans we supported the KLA hardly a moderate organization.

A western moderate is an extremist in middle eastern society and vice versa. That is one reason I support non-political non-military relationships between people of different nations. Trade can foster understanding far better than American hegemony. Voluntary relationships bring together people with common interests, their success will draw others forward to create similiar organic unforced real relations between people unaffected by demogogues.

BrianR · 09-13-2001, 02:18 PM

Canadian Newspaper Editorial

The following, from a Canadian newspaper, is worth
sharing.

Its subject is America: The Good Neighbor.

Widespread but only partial news coverage was given
recently to a remarkable editorial broadcast from
Toronto by Gordon Sinclair, a Canadian television
commentator. What follows is the full text of his
trenchant remarks as printed in the Congressional
Record:

"This Canadian thinks it is time to speak up for the
Americans as the most generous and possibly the least
appreciated people on all the earth. Germany, Japan
and, to a lesser extent, Britain and Italy were lifted
out of the debris of war by the Americans who poured
in billions of dollars and forgave other billions in
debts. None of these countries is today paying even
the interest on its remaining debts to the United
States.

When France was in danger of collapsing in 1956, it
was the Americans
who propped it up, and their reward was to be insulted
and swindled on the streets of Paris. I was there. I
saw it. When earthquakes hit distant cities, it is the
United States that hurries in to help. This spring, 59
American communities were flattened by tornadoes.
Nobody helped.

The Marshall Plan and the Truman Policy pumped
billions of dollars into discouraged countries. Now
newspapers in those countries are writing about the
decadent, warmongering Americans.

I'd like to see just one of those countries that is
gloating over the erosion of the United States dollar
build its own airplane. Does any other country in the
world have a plane to equal the Boeing Jumbo Jet, the
Lockheed Tri-Star, or the Douglas DC10? If so, why
don't they fly them? Why do all the International
lines except Russia fly American Planes?

Why does no other land on earth even consider putting
a man or woman on the moon? You talk about Japanese
technocracy, and you get radios. You talk about German
technocracy, and you get automobiles. You talk about
American technocracy, and you find men on the moon-not
once, but several times-and safely home again.

You talk about scandals, and the Americans put theirs
right in the store window for everybody to look at.
Even their draft-dodgers are not pursued and hounded.
They are here on our streets, and most of them, unless
they are breaking Canadian laws, are getting American
dollars from ma and pa at home to spend here.

When the railways of France, Germany and India were
breaking down through age, it as the Americans who
rebuilt them. When the Pennsylvania Railroad and the
New York Central went broke, nobody loaned them an old
caboose. Both are still broke. I can name you 5000
times when the Americans raced to the help of other
people in trouble. Can you name me even one time when
someone else raced to the Americans in trouble? I
don't think there was outside help even during the San
Francisco earthquake.

Our neighbors have faced it alone, and I'm one
Canadian who is damned tired of hearing them get
kicked around. They will come out of this thing with
their flag high. And when they do, they are entitled
to thumb their nose at the lands that are gloating
over their present troubles. I hope Canada is not one
of those."

Stand proud, America!

This is one of the best editorials that I have ever
read or heard regarding the United States. It is nice
that one man realizes it. I only wish that the rest of
the world would realize it. We are always blamed for
everything, and never even get a thank you for the
things we do.

elSicomoro · 09-13-2001, 06:40 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by tw
When Air Force One made a left turn for protection at Barksdale AFB, that was prudent. But by the time AF1 left Louisiana, 1) all airplanes were grounded, 2) any airplane left in the air would be immediately challenged by fighters or Navy Aegis ships, 3) AF1 flew at altitudes above any commercial flight (actual altitude still remains classified), and 4) any approaching aircraft would first be confronted by F-16s probably with missiles hot at pilot's discression. Long before George Jr arrived at a SAC base, any threat was long gone.

While you bring up interesting points tw, hearing about Cheney going to Camp David today brings me to this question: Wouldn't it have been prudent to keep the two separated, at least temporarily? Not to mention, in public situations, aren't the two kept separated most of the time?

Quote:

A leader would have recognized his leadership in Washington was necessary when in Louisiana. Indeed, remember 3 Mile Island? When Carter and wife arrived, there were expectations that an explosion was expected within those hours. Technicians were on the verge of bolting for their lives. Carter's arrival, as a true leader, was instrumental at finally settling wild fears among the experts. IOW a leader is the man who ends the chaos - as Carter did in 3 Mile Island, as Johnson did to hurry back to Washington from Dallas, and as Kennedy did during the Cuban Missile Crisis (the movie Thirteen Days) when he took personal command of Naval movements. Where was George Jr when chaos required his presence?

Did FDR go to Pearl Harbor? Not try to be sarcastic here...I'm actually serious. Let's also keep in mind that all the events you mentioned occurred over 20 years ago...a much different world than now.

Quote:

But an ABC news reporter bluntly said the flight path disproves White House statements. Why did the White House probably lie? Maybe George Jr's people recognized how un-Presidential his actions were. He failed to demonstrate leadership when it was required.

Has this been confirmed by air experts? I haven't really followed ABC (as I personally don't care for their reporting), but is a standard news reporter saying this, or an actual air or airline expert?

Regardless of how we feel about Dubya, he IS the President of the United States. He and Congress are calling the shots now, and we can only have hope in their leadership right now. I am somewhat concerned about the "gung ho" that is pervading our nation's sentiment. In addition, I fear for Arab-Americans and American Muslims who want nothing to do with the terrorists. But overall, the US government, with the help of its international friends, seems to be making good progress in getting to the bottom of things.

Hubris Boy · 09-13-2001, 07:19 PM

Militant left-wing extremists will resort to any extremist lengths to make their militant extremist beliefs known, to the exent of deliberate, extremist lying or extremistly distorting facts in order to accomodate them to their militant left-wing extremist views. When extremists resort to such militant extremist tactics, the best way to deal with these extremists is through humor.

We know these militant extremists by these extremist signs: turgid left-wing prose, militant extremist disregard for the most basic rules of grammar, an equally left-wing extremist disregard for the truth, a militant left-wing extremist inability to differentiate fact from opinion, and a mistaken extremist belief that verbosity is semantically equal to erudition.

Militant left-wing extremists having been fouling this forum, unfettered, with militant extremist gibberish for quite long enough. This militant extremism must be stopped. Henceforward, all militant extremist posts will be met with a firestorm of derision and ridicule. This policy will be pursued with vigor and with glee, and will continue, unabated, until the militant extremists are driven from the temple. Or at least until they buy a fucking thesaurus.

Militant extremists should consider themselves warned.

elSicomoro · 09-13-2001, 07:48 PM

With all due respect to tw, I had to laugh at this one...first chuckle I've had in a few days.

tw · 09-13-2001, 08:47 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Griff
... All of which ignores the possibility of a shoulder fired surface to air missle which the CIA in its infinite wisdom supplied to the Afghan rebels during the Reagan administration. AF1 is a big slow target during takeoff and landing.

There is also the question of who these so-called moderates are we are supposed to support. In the Balkans we supported the KLA hardly a moderate organization. ...

1) To be partisan, I would have to be a supporter of another party. I was an officer of the local Young Republicans, raised in a very Republican town, and eventually learned to be independent. I post without political bias - other than a very sharp change recently in my long term politial independence. At that point I did something I have never done - recommended voting against any Republican incumbant because extremism in the Republican party was growing rampant. Whereas I consider Jesse Helms and Orin Hatch as extermist racists (in different ways), I also consider McCain as the exception to the vote against Republican rule. Why the recommendation? To save the party. An independent liked it better when both parties represented moderate views.

George Jr has earned my disapproval mostly after he took office. Review pre-election posts. I believed he would probably win and took hope in his claims of being pragmatic and tolerant. Instead he insulted the German Chancellor AND makes science decisions without any science advisors and only what right wing extremists want. No partisan cloud because I have no affliation with any party. I am independent, which should be obvious from my often alternative viewpoints. George Jr needs to demonstrate leadership. So far he has done none.

2) If shoulder launched missile threats were ever considered, then the President would still be in the Rockies. The only threat that caused George Jr to run for the rabbit hole was hijacked commercial airliners.

3) We never supported the KLA. That lack of cooperation is why Nato's extensive bombing destroyed so little Serbian armor - until the very end when KLA spotters were finally provided only with radios. We were very careful to not ally ourselves with the KLA. Nato is now conducting a disarment campaign of the KLA.

One reason for so much success so far in the Balkans - we have not supported extremists AND have been very explicit what would happen if those we support became extremist.

Undertoad · 09-14-2001, 10:18 AM

BTW, on that Canadian editorial, it turns out that it was written in 1973 in concern that the American Red Cross was going bankrupt. The broadcaster who wronte it died in 1984.

Griff · 09-14-2001, 05:02 PM

I hesitate to continue since we are drifting from the tragedy, which should still be our primary concern. Despite the weirdness from hubris boy, I think everyone here wants justice for the victims. This event will help cut through the grey fog that is middle east morality politics and religion. Anyone who stands with the terrorists is an enemy of humanity, understanding why terrorists do what they do does not equal sympathizing.

We have no idea how or if the President was targeted. We know his situation was volatile and putting our two top government officials in close proximity wouldn't have been prudent. Symbolism has to my mind the same currency as any other emotion driven reaction. Its a short cut around thinking seriously about every situation. It has value in our tv driven culture but when the stakes are high people need to think not emote. Bush was not my choice at the polls either but this early in his administration, I'm trying to cut him some slack. I actually voted for Slick but he and his party lost me during his first term. Would I have been as generous with Gore as Bush? Maybe, if he didn't attack my core values right out of the box, as apparently you feel Bush has yours, even though his EPA seems intent on developing the tight arsenic in water controls Clinton was afraid to implement but left as a cute little political trap for the new guy.

I'm going too far afield here. We didn't have an official connection with the KLA but our "hyperpower" need to involve ourselves in other peoples conflicts made us their defacto air force and forced the "moderates" in Serbia underground for, thankfully, only a short time. We've been very lucky so far.

jaguar · 09-15-2001, 06:24 PM

Hubris ain't wierd, he's just a grammar nazi!
Anyway, this ain't a temple, its a cellar.
*ducks for cover*

09-13-2001, 06:50 AM	#16
Griff still says videotape Join Date: Feb 2001 Posts: 26,813	please don't let partisanship cloud your thinking "1) all airplanes were grounded, 2) any airplane left in the air would be immediately challenged by fighters or Navy Aegis ships, 3) AF1 flew at altitudes above any commercial flight (actual altitude still remains classified), and 4) any approaching aircraft would first be confronted by F-16s probably with missiles hot at pilot's discression. Long before George Jr arrived at a SAC base, any threat was long gone." All of which ignores the possibility of a shoulder fired surface to air missle which the CIA in its infinite wisdom supplied to the Afghan rebels during the Reagan administration. AF1 is a big slow target during takeoff and landing. There is also the question of who these so-called moderates are we are supposed to support. In the Balkans we supported the KLA hardly a moderate organization. A western moderate is an extremist in middle eastern society and vice versa. That is one reason I support non-political non-military relationships between people of different nations. Trade can foster understanding far better than American hegemony. Voluntary relationships bring together people with common interests, their success will draw others forward to create similiar organic unforced real relations between people unaffected by demogogues.

09-13-2001, 02:18 PM	#17
BrianR Cleverly disguised as a responsible adult Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: Dallas, TX Posts: 3,338	another opinion from Canada Canadian Newspaper Editorial The following, from a Canadian newspaper, is worth sharing. Its subject is America: The Good Neighbor. Widespread but only partial news coverage was given recently to a remarkable editorial broadcast from Toronto by Gordon Sinclair, a Canadian television commentator. What follows is the full text of his trenchant remarks as printed in the Congressional Record: "This Canadian thinks it is time to speak up for the Americans as the most generous and possibly the least appreciated people on all the earth. Germany, Japan and, to a lesser extent, Britain and Italy were lifted out of the debris of war by the Americans who poured in billions of dollars and forgave other billions in debts. None of these countries is today paying even the interest on its remaining debts to the United States. When France was in danger of collapsing in 1956, it was the Americans who propped it up, and their reward was to be insulted and swindled on the streets of Paris. I was there. I saw it. When earthquakes hit distant cities, it is the United States that hurries in to help. This spring, 59 American communities were flattened by tornadoes. Nobody helped. The Marshall Plan and the Truman Policy pumped billions of dollars into discouraged countries. Now newspapers in those countries are writing about the decadent, warmongering Americans. I'd like to see just one of those countries that is gloating over the erosion of the United States dollar build its own airplane. Does any other country in the world have a plane to equal the Boeing Jumbo Jet, the Lockheed Tri-Star, or the Douglas DC10? If so, why don't they fly them? Why do all the International lines except Russia fly American Planes? Why does no other land on earth even consider putting a man or woman on the moon? You talk about Japanese technocracy, and you get radios. You talk about German technocracy, and you get automobiles. You talk about American technocracy, and you find men on the moon-not once, but several times-and safely home again. You talk about scandals, and the Americans put theirs right in the store window for everybody to look at. Even their draft-dodgers are not pursued and hounded. They are here on our streets, and most of them, unless they are breaking Canadian laws, are getting American dollars from ma and pa at home to spend here. When the railways of France, Germany and India were breaking down through age, it as the Americans who rebuilt them. When the Pennsylvania Railroad and the New York Central went broke, nobody loaned them an old caboose. Both are still broke. I can name you 5000 times when the Americans raced to the help of other people in trouble. Can you name me even one time when someone else raced to the Americans in trouble? I don't think there was outside help even during the San Francisco earthquake. Our neighbors have faced it alone, and I'm one Canadian who is damned tired of hearing them get kicked around. They will come out of this thing with their flag high. And when they do, they are entitled to thumb their nose at the lands that are gloating over their present troubles. I hope Canada is not one of those." Stand proud, America! This is one of the best editorials that I have ever read or heard regarding the United States. It is nice that one man realizes it. I only wish that the rest of the world would realize it. We are always blamed for everything, and never even get a thank you for the things we do.

09-13-2001, 07:19 PM	#19
Hubris Boy Keymaster of Gozer Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: Patapsco Drainage Basin Posts: 471	Militant Extremists Militant left-wing extremists will resort to any extremist lengths to make their militant extremist beliefs known, to the exent of deliberate, extremist lying or extremistly distorting facts in order to accomodate them to their militant left-wing extremist views. When extremists resort to such militant extremist tactics, the best way to deal with these extremists is through humor. We know these militant extremists by these extremist signs: turgid left-wing prose, militant extremist disregard for the most basic rules of grammar, an equally left-wing extremist disregard for the truth, a militant left-wing extremist inability to differentiate fact from opinion, and a mistaken extremist belief that verbosity is semantically equal to erudition. Militant left-wing extremists having been fouling this forum, unfettered, with militant extremist gibberish for quite long enough. This militant extremism must be stopped. Henceforward, all militant extremist posts will be met with a firestorm of derision and ridicule. This policy will be pursued with vigor and with glee, and will continue, unabated, until the militant extremists are driven from the temple. Or at least until they buy a fucking thesaurus. Militant extremists should consider themselves warned.

09-14-2001, 05:02 PM	#23
Griff still says videotape Join Date: Feb 2001 Posts: 26,813	We all post with political bias I hesitate to continue since we are drifting from the tragedy, which should still be our primary concern. Despite the weirdness from hubris boy, I think everyone here wants justice for the victims. This event will help cut through the grey fog that is middle east morality politics and religion. Anyone who stands with the terrorists is an enemy of humanity, understanding why terrorists do what they do does not equal sympathizing. We have no idea how or if the President was targeted. We know his situation was volatile and putting our two top government officials in close proximity wouldn't have been prudent. Symbolism has to my mind the same currency as any other emotion driven reaction. Its a short cut around thinking seriously about every situation. It has value in our tv driven culture but when the stakes are high people need to think not emote. Bush was not my choice at the polls either but this early in his administration, I'm trying to cut him some slack. I actually voted for Slick but he and his party lost me during his first term. Would I have been as generous with Gore as Bush? Maybe, if he didn't attack my core values right out of the box, as apparently you feel Bush has yours, even though his EPA seems intent on developing the tight arsenic in water controls Clinton was afraid to implement but left as a cute little political trap for the new guy. I'm going too far afield here. We didn't have an official connection with the KLA but our "hyperpower" need to involve ourselves in other peoples conflicts made us their defacto air force and forced the "moderates" in Serbia underground for, thankfully, only a short time. We've been very lucky so far.

09-15-2001, 06:24 PM	#24
jaguar whig Join Date: Apr 2001 Posts: 5,075	Hubris ain't wierd, he's just a grammar nazi! Anyway, this ain't a temple, its a cellar. ducks for cover __________________ Good friends, good books and a sleepy conscience: this is the ideal life. - Twain

09-13-2001, 07:48 PM	#20
elSicomoro Person who doesn't update the user title Join Date: Jan 2001 Posts: 12,486	With all due respect to tw, I had to laugh at this one...first chuckle I've had in a few days.

09-14-2001, 10:18 AM	#22
Undertoad Radical Centrist Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: Cottage of Prussia Posts: 31,423	BTW, on that Canadian editorial, it turns out that it was written in 1973 in concern that the American Red Cross was going bankrupt. The broadcaster who wronte it died in 1984.

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