Mormon Madness

Pangloss62 · 05-06-2006, 10:31 AM

Republican Senator George Smith is on the talk circuit promoting a book about his son Garrett's suicide. He and his wife were on BookSPAN last week. I was trying to follow the chronology of Garrett's demise, when his father said something that made a light go off in my head. After a college roomate of Garrett told the parents he was worried about their son, they went to visit him. He had gained weight, not shaven for weeks, and, according to his parents, he had "let himself go." His parents wanted to help, so they said they could all take a vacation together. Where did Garrett want to go for a break? Back to England, WHERE HE DID HIS PRESCRIBED 2-YEAR MISSION WORK AS A MORMON!

I told myself I shouldn't jump to conclusions, so i did a little research on The Internets. Holy Tabernacle Choir!! I had no idea that there was such a large Mormon Recovery Movement (MRM); and suicide within the Mormon Church is a major issue for both the Mormans and their critics. As it turns out, Post-Mormon Mission Trip Suicide Syndrome (PMMTSS) is a well-documented reality, and this now-dead Garrett kid may well have been a recent casulty.

What really gets me steamed is that this fucking Senator NEVER even mentioned how his son's relationship to the Mormon religion, a religion that was foisted upon him as a young adopted kid, might have played a role in his suicide. No, for him it was all about "depression," and how parents had to watch out for the "signs" of the same. Hey, I get depressed all the time. This world is depressing. But give a kid the burden of Mormon exceptionalism, then send him to England to recruit more Mormons, you run the risk of creating a conflicted kid. The guilt and shame that come from merely questioning your Mormon faith well-documented.

wolf · 05-06-2006, 11:00 AM

The mormons are coming from a somewhat restricted gene pool, particularly in Utah. Original families tend to marry into original families. There may, because of this, be a higher tendency toward depression. just like the Amish trend for Bipolar Disorder. People who get depressed sometimes kill themselves.

Being LDS is probably only a very minor factor in any of these suicides.

Pangloss62 · 05-06-2006, 12:15 PM

I will agree and disagree. A congenital/genetic predisposition to depression does not rule out LDS culture as an equal, if not greater, factor for the higher rates of suicide. I only say this because I spent some time reading the strings on postmormon.org. and some other "Recovering Mormon" sites. Many former Mormons go into great detail about the pressure to conform and the shame that is thrust upon them when they're mission work is not sucessful or, ironically, how they yearned for the freedom they no longer have on their return. So many of these folks pointed to the Mormon culture as being the cause for depression.

That said, I am a determinist who considers both the genetic and evironmental factors, so genetic/enviro causality is probably at work here.

xoxoxoBruce · 05-06-2006, 12:32 PM

Since the kid was adopted, we don't know if he came from an inbred society or not.

Pangloss62 · 05-06-2006, 12:39 PM

Oh shit, I forgot about that. Adoptees have their own special baggage too.

Just as a genetic asside, there was "race" of strange people in Appalachia (KY/TN border) whose skin was so pale and so thin that all their veins were visible. They were known as "The Blue People."

Griff · 05-06-2006, 08:47 PM

EEYEEM Shure EYE ave new idea what yer takin aboot.

Tonchi · 05-07-2006, 12:02 AM

The last time we tried to discuss this dangerous cult, which has swallowed up members of my family, it seems we offended somebody who is not Mormon but has no choice about living in the middle of their stronghold. So I'm not sure we ought to go into it again. But, oh well...

Suicide and divorce are epidemic within the Mormon Church, and like everything else about this religion, they try to sweep it under the rug when a flaw is exposed. Not only because it is bad publicity for their recruiting, but because the way they retain these people in the fold is by making sure they never have access to anything except approved and official explanations.

The reason that this kid did away with himself after his Mission is very simple if you know how those work. I have copies of the instructions these kids get when they are sent to faraway places to make converts. They are rated on their success in signing up new members over this period, which can affects the prestige of their family and their own standing in the local Temple or Stake, and subsequently could cause employers or the fathers of potential brides to accept them readily or reject them. So they actually have a lot riding on this Mission, whether they admit it or not.

If they do not rake in the converts, or worse still, if they run into somebody who defies them and confounds them at every turn in a "preach-off", these kids have been known to go into massive depressions. (BTW, only men are sent on Missions, women only recently were thrown a bone by being allowed to participate in other missionary activities; they are not potential Gods like their male bretheren may aspire to be.) Because these boys are working from a prepared plan and because they are told that anybody who rejects the word of their Church is on the side of the Devil anyway and is beyond salvation, it is hard for them to understand how they can be blocked at every turn. It is actually very easy to shoot down Mormon arguments because their mythology is so bogus, and the Catholic Church has even printed a pamphlet on how to answer their statements, which I have. After running into enough of these brick walls, the "faith" of a Mormon missionary is sometimes shaken to the bone. The Mormons are not stupid people, quite the opposite, and when they begin to ask questions or to seek clarifications, they discover that there ARE no answers, there ARE no clarifications, and the elders of the Church will turn on them for questioning rather than to provide the information which these kids want in order to understand their failures. You have to understand that the indoctrination by the Mormon Church begins in the cradle and goes beyond the grave, and you are not allowed to investigate any other explanations except those already approved. When you are assured that you know the one true way and somebody gets to take a shot at your bubble and consistently breaks it, it is the end of your world. A Mission can be the end of your faith, and because you have no other reason to live, you take your life.

There is nothing more terrifying to a practicing Mormon than to feel estranged from his group. The suicide epidemic among their youth is not the result of inbred weakness, because the Mormons have also saturated Idaho, California, Nevada, Arizona, and many other locations. They are growing faster than any other mainstream church. They are not just huddling in a fortress in Utah anymore. But as a community, they still judge the members whom they consider to be failures or not of perfect faith very harshly. It is too much for many people to endure. Especially kids, who have enough problems knowing who they are without being told that they have somehow failed their family and failed God.

WabUfvot5 · 05-07-2006, 01:41 AM

Wow. That explains why they always seem so glum walking around this area of California. I can only assume their mission is not going well.

Pangloss62 · 05-07-2006, 08:37 AM

I think Tochi speaks from experience. It's scary how culture can mold a kid's mind. I knew that Senator was in denial; probably protecting himself from the horror that he played a big role in his son's death. "The horror. The horror."

Pangloss62 · 05-07-2006, 08:38 AM

Tonchi. Tonchi. Tonchi.

xoxoxoBruce · 05-07-2006, 10:23 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pangloss62

God is dead

No she's not. :p

richlevy · 05-07-2006, 02:17 PM

Well, here's something to add to the discussion. Just remember that this has nothing to do with LDS, since this a sect.

If anything, it's probably an embarrassment to the LDS. Sort of like how the Catholic Church would feel if someone started a sect based on 1st century Christian beliefs. Which might be an improvement, actually.

Quote:

Polygamy Sect Leader on FBI Wanted List

SALT LAKE CITY - Polygamist church leader Warren Jeffs has been placed on the FBI's Ten Most Wanted Fugitives list in hopes that the additional exposure and reward money will lead to his arrest.

Jeffs, 50, is accused of arranging marriages between underage girls and older men. He is wanted in Arizona on criminal charges of sexual conduct with a minor. He also was charged in Utah with rape as an accomplice.

"We are doing everything we can to track him down," Fuhrman, special agent in charge of the FBI's Salt Lake City field office, said Saturday.

Jeffs is the leader of the polygamous Fundamentalist Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints, based in the neighboring communities of Hildale, Utah, and Colorado City, Ariz.

The sect split from mainstream Mormonism after the broader church renounced polygamy in 1890. The mainstream LDS church excommunicates members found to be practicing polygamy.

Jeffs has not been seen by anyone outside of the FLDS community for nearly two years. He also faces a charge of unlawful flight to avoid prosecution.

By putting him on the Top 10 list, the FBI's reward increases from $50,000 to $100,000.

Wow, a hundred grand. I wonder if any of his followers will be tempted?

xoxoxoBruce · 05-07-2006, 07:04 PM

What, risk the collapse of the Polygamist faction and give up their place in heaven for a $100k? Nah.
Well, one of the slaves,...er ...um...women might.

mrnoodle · 05-08-2006, 09:34 AM

You get your own planet when you die, and you get to decide if your wimmin gets to go or not. Where do I sign up?

meh. can you imagine being in charge of a whole planet? I hope I just get a few acres in heaven, and a riding lawnmower.

SteveDallas · 05-08-2006, 09:50 AM

No rational concept of heaven includes grass that requires mowing.

05-06-2006, 10:31 AM	#1
Pangloss62 Lecturer Join Date: May 2006 Location: Atlanta Posts: 768	Mormon Madness Republican Senator George Smith is on the talk circuit promoting a book about his son Garrett's suicide. He and his wife were on BookSPAN last week. I was trying to follow the chronology of Garrett's demise, when his father said something that made a light go off in my head. After a college roomate of Garrett told the parents he was worried about their son, they went to visit him. He had gained weight, not shaven for weeks, and, according to his parents, he had "let himself go." His parents wanted to help, so they said they could all take a vacation together. Where did Garrett want to go for a break? Back to England, WHERE HE DID HIS PRESCRIBED 2-YEAR MISSION WORK AS A MORMON! I told myself I shouldn't jump to conclusions, so i did a little research on The Internets. Holy Tabernacle Choir!! I had no idea that there was such a large Mormon Recovery Movement (MRM); and suicide within the Mormon Church is a major issue for both the Mormans and their critics. As it turns out, Post-Mormon Mission Trip Suicide Syndrome (PMMTSS) is a well-documented reality, and this now-dead Garrett kid may well have been a recent casulty. What really gets me steamed is that this fucking Senator NEVER even mentioned how his son's relationship to the Mormon religion, a religion that was foisted upon him as a young adopted kid, might have played a role in his suicide. No, for him it was all about "depression," and how parents had to watch out for the "signs" of the same. Hey, I get depressed all the time. This world is depressing. But give a kid the burden of Mormon exceptionalism, then send him to England to recruit more Mormons, you run the risk of creating a conflicted kid. The guilt and shame that come from merely questioning your Mormon faith well-documented.

05-06-2006, 11:00 AM	#2
wolf lobber of scimitars Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: Phila Burbs Posts: 20,774	The mormons are coming from a somewhat restricted gene pool, particularly in Utah. Original families tend to marry into original families. There may, because of this, be a higher tendency toward depression. just like the Amish trend for Bipolar Disorder. People who get depressed sometimes kill themselves. Being LDS is probably only a very minor factor in any of these suicides. __________________ wolf eht htiw og "Conspiracies are the norm, not the exception." --G. Edward Griffin The Creature from Jekyll Island High Priestess of the Church of the Whale Penis

05-06-2006, 12:15 PM	#3
Pangloss62 Lecturer Join Date: May 2006 Location: Atlanta Posts: 768	Genetics or Environment? I will agree and disagree. A congenital/genetic predisposition to depression does not rule out LDS culture as an equal, if not greater, factor for the higher rates of suicide. I only say this because I spent some time reading the strings on postmormon.org. and some other "Recovering Mormon" sites. Many former Mormons go into great detail about the pressure to conform and the shame that is thrust upon them when they're mission work is not sucessful or, ironically, how they yearned for the freedom they no longer have on their return. So many of these folks pointed to the Mormon culture as being the cause for depression. That said, I am a determinist who considers both the genetic and evironmental factors, so genetic/enviro causality is probably at work here.

05-06-2006, 12:32 PM	#4
xoxoxoBruce The future is unwritten Join Date: Oct 2002 Posts: 71,105	Since the kid was adopted, we don't know if he came from an inbred society or not. __________________ The descent of man ~ Nixon, Friedman, Reagan, Trump.

05-06-2006, 12:39 PM	#5
Pangloss62 Lecturer Join Date: May 2006 Location: Atlanta Posts: 768	Oh shit, I forgot about that. Adoptees have their own special baggage too. Just as a genetic asside, there was "race" of strange people in Appalachia (KY/TN border) whose skin was so pale and so thin that all their veins were visible. They were known as "The Blue People." __________________ Things are never as good, or bad, as they seem.

05-06-2006, 08:47 PM	#6
Griff still says videotape Join Date: Feb 2001 Posts: 26,813	EEYEEM Shure EYE ave new idea what yer takin aboot. Attached Images __________________ If you would only recognize that life is hard, things would be so much easier for you. - Louis D. Brandeis

05-07-2006, 12:02 AM	#7
Tonchi Victim of gravity Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Hiding in plain sight Posts: 1,412	The last time we tried to discuss this dangerous cult, which has swallowed up members of my family, it seems we offended somebody who is not Mormon but has no choice about living in the middle of their stronghold. So I'm not sure we ought to go into it again. But, oh well... Suicide and divorce are epidemic within the Mormon Church, and like everything else about this religion, they try to sweep it under the rug when a flaw is exposed. Not only because it is bad publicity for their recruiting, but because the way they retain these people in the fold is by making sure they never have access to anything except approved and official explanations. The reason that this kid did away with himself after his Mission is very simple if you know how those work. I have copies of the instructions these kids get when they are sent to faraway places to make converts. They are rated on their success in signing up new members over this period, which can affects the prestige of their family and their own standing in the local Temple or Stake, and subsequently could cause employers or the fathers of potential brides to accept them readily or reject them. So they actually have a lot riding on this Mission, whether they admit it or not. If they do not rake in the converts, or worse still, if they run into somebody who defies them and confounds them at every turn in a "preach-off", these kids have been known to go into massive depressions. (BTW, only men are sent on Missions, women only recently were thrown a bone by being allowed to participate in other missionary activities; they are not potential Gods like their male bretheren may aspire to be.) Because these boys are working from a prepared plan and because they are told that anybody who rejects the word of their Church is on the side of the Devil anyway and is beyond salvation, it is hard for them to understand how they can be blocked at every turn. It is actually very easy to shoot down Mormon arguments because their mythology is so bogus, and the Catholic Church has even printed a pamphlet on how to answer their statements, which I have. After running into enough of these brick walls, the "faith" of a Mormon missionary is sometimes shaken to the bone. The Mormons are not stupid people, quite the opposite, and when they begin to ask questions or to seek clarifications, they discover that there ARE no answers, there ARE no clarifications, and the elders of the Church will turn on them for questioning rather than to provide the information which these kids want in order to understand their failures. You have to understand that the indoctrination by the Mormon Church begins in the cradle and goes beyond the grave, and you are not allowed to investigate any other explanations except those already approved. When you are assured that you know the one true way and somebody gets to take a shot at your bubble and consistently breaks it, it is the end of your world. A Mission can be the end of your faith, and because you have no other reason to live, you take your life. There is nothing more terrifying to a practicing Mormon than to feel estranged from his group. The suicide epidemic among their youth is not the result of inbred weakness, because the Mormons have also saturated Idaho, California, Nevada, Arizona, and many other locations. They are growing faster than any other mainstream church. They are not just huddling in a fortress in Utah anymore. But as a community, they still judge the members whom they consider to be failures or not of perfect faith very harshly. It is too much for many people to endure. Especially kids, who have enough problems knowing who they are without being told that they have somehow failed their family and failed God. __________________ Everything you've ever heard about Fresno is true. Last edited by Tonchi; 05-07-2006 at 12:06 AM.

05-07-2006, 01:41 AM	#8
WabUfvot5 Operations Operative Join Date: May 2002 Posts: 634	Wow. That explains why they always seem so glum walking around this area of California. I can only assume their mission is not going well.

05-07-2006, 08:37 AM	#9
Pangloss62 Lecturer Join Date: May 2006 Location: Atlanta Posts: 768	I think Tochi speaks from experience. It's scary how culture can mold a kid's mind. I knew that Senator was in denial; probably protecting himself from the horror that he played a big role in his son's death. "The horror. The horror." __________________ Things are never as good, or bad, as they seem.

05-07-2006, 08:38 AM	#10
Pangloss62 Lecturer Join Date: May 2006 Location: Atlanta Posts: 768	Tonchi. Tonchi. Tonchi. __________________ Things are never as good, or bad, as they seem.

05-07-2006, 07:04 PM	#13
xoxoxoBruce The future is unwritten Join Date: Oct 2002 Posts: 71,105	What, risk the collapse of the Polygamist faction and give up their place in heaven for a $100k? Nah. Well, one of the slaves,...er ...um...women might. __________________ The descent of man ~ Nixon, Friedman, Reagan, Trump.

05-08-2006, 09:34 AM	#14
mrnoodle bent Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: under the weather Posts: 2,656	You get your own planet when you die, and you get to decide if your wimmin gets to go or not. Where do I sign up? meh. can you imagine being in charge of a whole planet? I hope I just get a few acres in heaven, and a riding lawnmower. __________________ Sìn a nall na cuaranan sin. -- Cha mhór is fheairrde thu iad, tha iad coltach ri cat air a dhathadh

05-08-2006, 09:50 AM	#15
SteveDallas Your Bartender Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Philly Burbs, PA Posts: 7,651	No rational concept of heaven includes grass that requires mowing.

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